best small or medium breed off-lead

[iiojdasdewe]

I want a biddable dog that is handler focussed and really good off-lead, for playing frisbee/fetch in the fields, hiking in forests and hills, and possibly running alongside me as I ride my bike on trails. but I don't want a big dog at all. Smaller than 20kg would be best. Any ideas?

A lot of it's down to training rather than breed. I know dogs of all breeds who have zero recall, and dogs of all breeds who can easily be trusted.

What else do you want from a dog? How much time do you have for training and exercise?

A Collie. No terrier would work.

I'll assume this would be your first dog as none of these things are necessarily breed specific.

It all comes down to training, biddable dogs are biddable because lots of time and effort has gone into training. My working cocker is incredibly biddable but that is because she is a working gundog and I have spent 100s of hours training her.

A cocker spaniel - IF you put the work into training it. And it will be a lot of work. But worth it. You sound pretty active so that should keep a spaniel happy and playing ball will work well with its hunting instincts. But you need to be aware of those instincts and worth with them.

I had a terrier that would fit that actually.

Yes of course, but breed does have a major impact too. I'm not going to even consider a sighthound or terrier, for example.

We're active, I can do 1-2 hours of exercise a day and more time at home for training/mental stimulation.

That doesn't mean I don't want a dog who does less than that, of course. Just that that's what I can offer if needed. I run/cycle/hike a lot.

Have had dogs before so I'm not new to training them. Just struggling to find that perfect breed tbh.

Spaniel? Collie?

But agree, it’s all training really. And every breed has its downsides to balance the upsides so you need to think more of the rest of your lifestyle and situation.

A terrier could easily fit the bill, though. I walked a Cairn Terrier that would be perfect for what you describe. I also know a whippet with flawless recall who would fit too.

If you've not had dogs before I would go for something reliable like a Labrador.

I would never recommend a cocker for a first time owner and the OP sounds like a first time owner. The number of cockers currently in rescue centres due to resource guarding/biting is staggering. They are not dogs suitable for novice owners in my opinion.

Collies need a lot of work though, not a breed I would recommend for a first-time owner as they can easily run rings around you and develop bad habits if you're not careful.

I also know plenty of terriers who could do what OP is asking.

We have a springer...possibly slightly larger at 23kg as an adult (bitch) although a working type like we have is usually a bit smaller and maybe more like 20kg.

Shes nearly 6 months old and has totally bombproof recall (and I mean bombproof...she'll stop instantly mid-squirrel or bird chase and return if called). I also whistle trained her as the one time she didn't come back instantly was last month on a hill and I realised she just couldn't hear me in the high winds...whilstle trained her in one 5 minute session and she's been reliable to the whistle since. She's equally reliable whether on the beach, in dense woodland, a field or halfway up a mountain, walking or biking.

It didn't just happen, we've worked on recall daily since 8 weeks old but it's been fairly easy. One consistent call, a treat every time she comes to you and lots and lots of hide and seek (first at home and in the garden, then on walks. I still hide from her now but it's hard to lose her for more than ten seconds nowadays).

My first dog was a cocker, and a rescue dog at that. Not a working type though, that’s a whole other kettle of fish.

Do you actually want a puppy op? Because tbh I’d probably head to a rescue centre and see what they have that will fit the bill. I went look for a greyhound and got a cocker spaniel… he was a great dog. And the advantage of an adult dog is that you won’t have to worry about limiting their exercise as you would a puppy (general health permitting of course).

Yeah I've been looking at Brittany Spaniels or maybe a Collie. Both seem good fits.

I think the problem you are going to have is you won't be able to do all those things until you have spent an awful long time training them to do what you want.

Really good off lead means good recall which takes months/years to train from a puppy and expect it to fall apart when they hit the teenage phase.

Hiking etc will require taking it slowly to build up fitness oh and whilst that happens remember you need to train recall for point 1.

Good handler focus again will require lots of training to work on the bond.

Running whilst you cycle. Hmmm my WCS is great with recall and will run for miles but would kill me if I cycled near him as he likes to zigzag for scents and would totally run in front of the bike if he picked up a scent. Again with any dog you would have to spend a long time training the behaviour you want.

After all I have said if you do have the time to spend training for many months before you can do everything you want I would look at working breeds.

Have you had a dog before?

If you haven't, I really wouldn't recommend a collie. As lovely as they are (I walk several) they're exceptionally intelligent and will run rings around you if you don't know what you're doing. You have to completely on the ball with them from day one.

Brittanies IME can be a bit unreliable in terms of temperament, though I know some lovely ones - ask lots of questions about the dogs in the pedigree. They're HPRs and therefore driven and active. I could find out a bit about breeders if you're interested.

Breeds do vary in their trainability - though you'll always get the outliers. You can have a very biddable dog (that is, one receptive to training) but if you don't train it, you'll still have problems. Also think about things like shedding/grooming and how much in the way of mud and burrs the dog is likely to pick up, and how much time you want to spend picking things out of its coat.

I think I agree with @twistyizzy about working cockers. Delightful in the right hands, bloody nightmares sometimes in the wrong one. I know someone involved in spaniel rescue and it's a huge issue at the moment.

Our collie is a great trail running dog and weighs 17kg. I tend to agree that training collies is hard! Get professional advice early from someone who has trained collies and follow it. Plus they aren't the easiest dogs to source in my view. Show collies tend to come in larger than working dogs - the breed spec is up to 25kg for females and 27 for males and ime the big ones you see are often from show lines. Working dogs like ours are hard to train and need a lot of reinforcement. There are lines bred for agility - I don't know much about them but have been told they can be a bit neurotic. People we know who mountain bike with dogs also have border terriers and labs and we used to have a lab. They'll all do the job, enjoy plenty of exercise and generally be healthy but labs and borders might be better first dogs. If you are considering a collie do consider an adult rescue, there are loads in collie specific rescues and if you are an adult only home and can offer exercise, mental stimulation and boundaries many would thrive with you.

Whippet?

Yes I've had 2 dogs before, both raised from puppies. I'm not expecting a dog to be magically good at recall with no training – I'm just cognisant that some breeds are naturally more adept and reliable at it, assuming all other variables (i.e. me and my training methods) are the same.

Both my past dogs were big and now I want something smaller, which leaves me a bit clueless as I've never really looked at medium or small breeds before. So just looking for some ideas that I can research in-depth, really.

My working springer spaniel is under 15 kg, another with total recall to whistle, can keep going all day. But whatever you get you need to put in the training.

Totally agree - the situation at Spaniel Aid right now is horrendous.

Brittanies IME can be a bit unreliable in terms of temperament, though I know some lovely ones - ask lots of questions about the dogs in the pedigree

What I've read about them seems to be a bit of conflicting in that lots of people say they're excellent at recall and off-lead exercise, but a few places I've read say they have very high prey-drive due to their working background, which makes me question them a bit.

Brittany's are hunting dogs ie very high prey drive and can be unreliable with recall. You see a lot on long lines which says it all.

I would recommend a Labrador - a bit bigger than you want, but they're popular for a reason. They are bred to be biddable and to stick close to their owners - hence why they're used as working dogs - both in the field and in domestic settings.

Keep in mind that a biddable dog wants to make you happy. An intelligent dog will learn what you want, then figure out ways to avoid it.