Is it the right time to say goodbye?

[Acupofteaplease]

I know there's lots of threads on this, and generally the answer is you'll just know. But we just don't!

We have a lovely, old greyhound who's 13 and a half, she's been struggling with various things from old age since about August when she started showing signs of dementia and her back legs seemed to be a little weaker. She was put on various medications for pain relief and arthritis, none of which seemed to do anything so we eventually stopped and have just left her on yumove, not sure it helps at all but it can't hurt.

We have since realised its either degenerative myelopathy or some other nerve damage as the last two months she shuffles her back legs more, and her feet drag (you can hear it on the hard floors and pavements). Shes been incontinent at night both wees and poos for about 4 or 5 months now, but we've dealt with it by just putting puppy pads down on the floor each night and having spare washable beds.( 5 or 6 out of 7 nights shes had accidents in the night.) Its just become a routine now . The last few days her back foot has knuckled under quite a few times at home, she's struggled more when getting up from her bed, weve had to help her a few times as she just couldn't seem to manage from certain positions. And this morning my husband came down and she'd weed and pood on her bed and was still laying on it 😥

She still loves food, her dementia means that she thinks we haven't fed her even immediately after she's been fed! She can still do very short walks, but does sometimes stumble or loses her back legs momentarily and she still loves a fuss.
This is what is making it so hard to know if the time is right.

After this morning I just wondered if we should be thinking about having her put to sleep soon. Her legs are only going to get worse over the next months and I feel like we are just waiting until she cant get up at all to make the decision 😩 is that right? is it wrong? I just dont know 😩 im worried about leaving it too long but also worried about doing it too soon.

Sorry, thats such an essay but I wanted to make sure I said it all so anyone can give me advice on what you'd do in this situation.

Thanks in advance

Any incontinent dpet can't be a happy one imo. Our ddog had a suspected brain tumour nearly 2 years ago. It truly sucks op. But in your shoes I would be making the appointment..

I think it's time. This is the best she's ever going to be, don't wait until she's suffering.

If you're wondering, it's time.
I'm sorry.

I think it's probably time she isn't comfortable it's a tough conversation Buti think you should speak to your vet about it . I'm very sorry it's so hard

I think that the time is getting very near tbh. Once their feet start knuckling under then they are risking sore feet, and being incontinent and not being able to get up from it will make her skin sore very quickly as well as being unpleasant for her.
Better to have a planned passing after a lovely day when you can give her all the treats and love, than an emergency trip to the vets if she can't get up at all imo

An alternative view- she’s not on many meds. Ddog is a similar breed with similar problems and is on canergy, paracetamol, vitofylin and amantadine 😳
I know they work because she declines if we mess up her meds. Definitely worth discussing with the vet.

I agree with @Sideswiped as soon as you have a reason to ask yourself 'Is it time?' It probably is.

We did the same with our old boy. In hindsight I wish we had done it earlier. He ended up passing away at home, the morning of his appointment to be pts. But he really wasn't well and we kept him going thinking he was ok, but he wasn't, it was just his problems had become normal.

Thanks all for your responses, I just needed to hear back from others as she's our first dog so we've never been through this before and I just feel like it's such a struggle knowing whats the right thing.
She's been such an amazing dog and even with dementia and struggling with old age she has the sweetest nature still and is amazing with my kids.

I'm going to take her to the vet next week and ask what their opinion is as well and hopefully I'll get a balanced answer from them.

My darling Labrador became fecally incontinent when she was 16. It wasn't as bad as it sounds as she was on dry food so the poo was quite dry and well formed so actually quite easy to clean up. We managed for a few months but she always looked so sad and so embarrassed when she had an accident. It was due to spinal arthritis and she lost sensation of when she needed to go. It was seeing how sad it made her and her efforts to try and get up quickly to get outside once she started to go that made the decision that it was time to let her go. I still miss her so much but I know it was the right decision for her.

My DMIL recently had her much loved 16 yr old collie PTS after he stopped being able to get up at all. I am afraid I privately thought she should have done it quite a few months sooner. It was really tragic to see him having to be hauled up, tottering a few steps and falling over when his back legs went from under him especially remembering what an active dog he used to be. He was deaf and had dementia too. She felt that as he still enjoyed his food and wagged his tail for her that it wasn't time but I thought he was suffering and I was glad she came to the decision in the end.
I do think you can lose perspective when you are very close to it but that objectively a dog that is immobile and incontinent has not got much quality of life.

This is exactly what I'm worried about. I think we probably have lost perspective a bit as it just becomes routine dealing with things now. I always said when she cant get up on her own, then I'll know its time. Twice this week she had to be helped into a position so she could get up, but I find myself saying 'but she managed to get up after that and the next day so maybe it was just the position.' But then I think i'm just making excuses because I don't want to face it.
It's such a hard decision to make, I'm racked with guilt that whatever I do itll be the wrong thing 😩

We are working closely with our vet on making the decision for our 16 year old Lurcher. They advised us to make a list of what his best life was and what things made him happy, then another of what his life is like now and how many things he has left that make him happy. Then finally, based on the above, draw up a list of red-lines, which are essentially events that mean it’s time to let him go and if one of those occurs, actually be strong enough to do it.

We were also advised to keep a good day/bad day diary, so we can easily see if the balance starts to tip. We just use a green/orange/red colour coded system on a magnetic white board on the fridge.

This is to try and avoid the inevitable process with geriatric dogs with chronic conditions, where you grow used to living with their diminished state and either don’t notice the decline or keep kidding yourself with the ‘he had a bad day yesterday, but he’s been better today, so maybe he has more time’ thing.

My boy has similar issues to your girl, some cognitive decline, spinal deterioration, some accidents in the house and in his case, some unspecified neuro/small seizure-like issues as well.

Up until the last week we felt he was happy, seemed content and not unduly anxious and his pain has been well managed by his meds. He was still enjoying his sniffy walks and heavily involved in supervising mealtimes and cooking duties, as well as going on squirrel and pigeon patrol in the garden and displaying his cheeky side. Then over the last few days he’s seemed rather flat and less active. He can get up and down on his own, but it’s no longer easy for him and he is wobbling, knuckling and falling more and we have had a few accidents in the house over the last week as well.

We have been monitoring him closely for a few months now and the vet has been happy that he was stable and comfortable, but there’s no doubt he’s started to decline and I don’t want him to suffer or have sudden severe event. It would be easy to explain his behaviour this week away as being down to dh being back in the office for four days and away overnight for one night this week, but realistically, although I know that will have unsettled him, I know deep down that there’s more to it.

So, we’re planning to sit down as a family (dc are 19, 17 and 13 and all actively involved in his care) this weekend and decide when. Then we will give him a few days of being spoiled rotten before letting him go.

I totally understand the feelings of guilt. I have wrestled with not wanting to rob him of any of his life, but also not wanting him to suffer to the point that monitoring his health and welfare has become a bit of an obsession. Even after 30 years of having dogs it never gets any easier.

He has been absolutely the best boy, the perfect family dog, so sweet natured and not a bad bone in his body and after 16 years, he is going to leave a massive hole. We lost our other Lurcher during the first lockdown in 2020 (he was only 7 and died suddenly at home) so this will be the first time in 30 years I will have been without a dog as well. I am dreading it, but know I need remember that it’s the last thing I can do for him and he needs me to strong.

Not sure if any of that was helpful to you, but if nothing else I hope it helps you aren’t alone. x

It is such a hard decision. I asked my vet and was told I would know when it was time. I wanted him to tell me and absolve me of the guilt. But the final decision was made because I loved her and didn't want her to suffer. It would've been selfish to keep her going. She was very special

No it won't, @Acupofteaplease. Please don't think I'm lecturing you, because I've been in your position more than once.
Just hear me out:
You know she's not the dog she was and is struggling. And you have doubt as to if she should go on. I really feel for you.
It's very difficult to let a much-loved pet go, but at least you can give them that last kindness, which we can't give to our human loved ones.
I'm not projecting here, and you can take it or leave it, but I want to tell you about something that happened to me:
I had the most loveable spaniel come to live with me (an ex-gun dog who had never even been in a house). He had an eye condition so couldn't work any more.
He wasn't expected to live much longer, but went on for years, until he first got cancer and then a skin condition as well. Of course, I took him to the vets for treatment, and one evening I knew it was his time. We (XH and I) took him to the vets, where I knew it was time to have him PTS. The vet didn't agree, and now XH agreed, so I backed down.
Two days later he couldn't get up on to his feet. I insisted we had the responsibility to be kind, so he was PTS that day. You have no idea how bitterly I regret those two days. I should have stood up for him. I knew in my heart what was right. I still regret it, even though it was 30 years ago.
I really don't want you to end up feeling like that.

@PermanentlyDizzy thanks so much for sharing your situation with me, i'm so sorry you are going through it as well though.
I'm going to do the colour coded thing over the next week, weve been doing it mentally and vocally (me and my husband discuss each day) for a little while but I think seeing it visually might help me. Sending you hugs.xx

@sideswiped I dont think you're lecturing me at all. I completely agree with what your saying, and I'm really aware that I dont want to leave it too late. I really appreciate you replying. Everyone's replies are really helpful.x

Ddog here is keeping us on our toes. She’s always been fussy about her food and it’s noticeable when she doesn’t have her meds. After eating barely anything yesterday, hence not being medicated I placed and mushed up some chicken and hand fed her. As she’s rarely off the sofa nowadays I didn’t pay attention to the open door as I put the rubbish out, a door slammed and she scarpered down the road. Poor DH who covid isolating carried her home, I took her off him and she was noticeably light.

We are still struggling with this decision. Not really sure why I'm posting again. We've got an appointment with the vets on Monday to discuss the issues and get his opinions on her quality of life. It varies so much hour by hour, yesterday afternoon I took her out on a 5 - 10 minute walk and she was so slow we literally shuffled down the road. But in the evening she seemes to want to go out again so we took her for 20 minutes and she walked so much better. But then in the morning she's poo'd and wee'd on her bed again. She also had very severe tremors in her front legs for a while yesterday then it passed and then in the evening we had a moment where she almost acts quite playful. Its so confusing 😩😥 one day I feel like things are really quite bad and then the next moment I'm thinking its not the right time. Neither of us can get our head around what on earth is the right thing...

Oh I’m so sorry this situation must be so hard and so sad. I don’t have experience of this as an adult, our dog now is only young still but I do know that soiling their bed goes against all the instincts that they have so this must be very horrible for her. This to me would be a big sign that your lovely girl is ready to move on x

In the veterinary world at often prefer to say. Better a week too soon than a day too late. She's clearly struggling. Do you feel she has quality of life. It must be awful for her to not be Able to move around much Anymore. Esp being her breed. She will get to a point where she's unable to get up at all and in pain from it. It's a personal choice how close to that point you wish to wait. No vet will tell you it's wrong to say goodbye now, or wait a little longer

im sorry youre dealing with this. I think the question is about whether she has quality of life. Is she in pain or can her pain be managed better?
There isnt really a great answer. You know its not going to be long now, and its very easy for others to say you should do it.
I remember my partner and his dog a few years ago. He did leave it longer than I would and she ended up dying in his arms, and it wasnt nice at the end, but lots of people do give pain relief but let them go naturally. Its what happens when people are dying after all.
Please dont be too hard on yourself. Youre already going through enough.
I have an elderly dog who is not in good health and ive been told that she will let us know when its time, but you could drive yourself mad second guessing yourself when she is still showing quality of life at times. Its ok to just take things slowly with your lovely dog. Really short walks or just taking her somewhere to sniff things and see people, like a dog friendly cafe or a park bench.
Its just such an odd time. Feeling in limbo. Its awful to see an animal suffering, but I dont think its fair for people to put pressure on anyone else to PTS before theyre sure.
You said that you feel like youre waiting till her legs give out to be sure. I think thats ok. Its also ok if you feel like shes had enough now. You know her better than anyone.

This might sound harsh but this is the best she's ever going to get. She's old, and ill. She's soiling her bed and can't walk properly. She's having tremors. Don't wait until she's not having any good moments at all. And it sounds like that is all that are.. brief moments where she seems marginally better, against a backdrop of what sounds to be becoming pretty miserable for her. If she was mine i would be planning to make the appointment and give her a few days of getting really spoilt before i said goodbye.

@Acupofteaplease you’re not alone, we are still here too. We made the decision to call the vets first thing Monday morning and book him in with his favourite vet this Thursday evening, we bought in some lovely salmon and organic chicken to treat him and discussed ways to spoil him this week, but then he had other ideas.

After a week of being very flat, some toileting accidents and generally not being himself, last Sunday he totally rallied and made us doubt ourselves. The monitoring for the previous two weeks showed a clear decline, but since Sunday he’s been upbeat, cheeky, trotting around the garden patrolling for pigeons and squirrels, tracing the field mouse tracks, has had no more accidents in the house and has been consistently back up on the monitoring charts. He’s just been for a snuffle around the park with dh and trotted along quite happily, enjoying all the smells and the wind in his ears.

Going strictly by the monitoring and red-line process, if we had been strict and gone ahead, we should/would have been saying goodbye tomorrow, but how can we when he is happy and lively (for an old boy) (even if it is an a very different way than when he was a young dog)?

I am very stressed and confused by it all. I was sure we would be firm and stick to our guns after following the monitoring advice and seeing a clear decline and we know the end is still very near, but it feels wrong to let him go while he’s still happy, with an interest in what’s going on around him etc.

The self-doubt is awful and I know all the ‘better a day too soon’ advice, having given it myself in the past, but my gut feeling at the moment is that too soon is just that right now. Problem being, I suppose, I don’t know whether to trust that gut feeling. We are keeping the dialogue open as a family, so it’s not just just me and dh, who is usually the strong/sensible one, agrees it’s not quite time, so all we can do is trust our decision and hope it’s the right one.

All but one of my previous dogs have had something serious going on that essentially made the decision for us. The one that didn’t did let me know when she had had enough. She had become less and less active, until she was barely leaving her bed and was struggling to get up and down the step into the back garden. Vet couldn’t find anything specifically wrong, but she was almost 15 and obviously not happy. That last day she looked at me in such a way that I just knew what she was telling me. I spent the whole day sat quietly with her and took her that evening. I had to carry her, as there was no way she could have walked and it was incredibly hard, but it felt right. Right now, if I took my boy, he would trot in there all excited to see the staff and get treats and that just doesn’t feel right.

Thanks for all the replies everyone. It's really comforting to just hear what others have to say and I'm really trying to take everything said on board.
@permanentlyDizzy im so sorry it's such a confusing time for you too. This is exactly our predicament, sometimes I think we can't let it keep going on like this and then other times I look at her and she that spark and joy still but I know that she could very easily just not be able to get up tomorrow or hurt herself. So difficult and so confusing. Keep me updated as to how you get on.x

It’s horrible and you need to be brave. If you can hold your nerve be with her when the time comes, its the best thing you can do for them xx