Please help

[wishfuldogowner]

Hi sorry this may be a long one. We have a 12m lab, he's not our first dog and we did lots of research before choosing him. We started straining at 10 weeks and enrolled in puppy classes at 4m. We were seeing progress but it all went to pot around 5/6m. It doesn't help he's a big dog. (Around 45kg now) the issues are -

Jumping up (mainly at others) - we ignore this which works mostly but doesn't help with other people
Biting - never improved now uses it to show annoyance ie on way home from walk or if taking away something he shouldn't have
Pulling on lead - this started about 5m we stop and make him walk back. He does it then immediately starts to pull again. I tried the change direction but he pulled then too. We do heel work during walk he can doit but on his terms he will move away if had enough. Treats he will accept then move immediately after.
Recall- he's great unless he sees another dog. He is fine with other dogs but other owners don't like him as he's so big and boisterous
Jumping up when we are eating/busy- we try to get him to sit and reward but he just comes back. Treats he gobbles down, chews/toys he ignores.
Biting lead- if we use it in house ie if visitors are there or at other peoples houses he will go mad and bite/pull lead. Also does it on way home from walk we try to ignore it/not engage

We just don't know what to do. The puppy classes were reward based and worked to a point. When we tried to reduce treats he stopped responding as well and now he will follow commands for treats if he wants to he's not that bothered. We got a second trainer at 10m she told us to shake a bottle at him or spray water in his face. We tried the bottle, he became aggressive so we stopped and didn't go back. We have had two sessions with a new trainer who teaches through play he's enjoying it but if I try to add commands in sit, wait etc he sometimes does it or just ignores me. It feels like a constant battle of wills. I find it frustrating because I spend hours everyday walking/training/ playing with him for little or no reward. He's not affectionate or cuddly and doesn't give back.

I'm sorry it's so long just wondering if anyone has any ideas that worked for them or people who had similar experience and it got better or is anyone struggling like me? Thanks

Could’ve written your post 11 years ago….
Have you had a lab before? Mine was exactly the same. He’s now 11, he’s never had recall- never come back EVER. He stopped pulling around age 6 after he tore his cruciate and needed an op.
I had a trainer who told me to use a bottle of stones, didn’t work.

Define aggressive? What’s he doing exactly? We thought ours was aggressive, behaviourist and vet said no- that’s a lab and your inexperienced.

What do you mean by biting? Is it mouthing? I can’t imagine you’d have limbs left, if your lab decides to really bite you… Trainer told me to use Tobasco sauce as a deterrent. Do not yelp, they think that’s fun. Say a loud and firm NO and remove yourself. Do not give the dog attention for five mins.
Biting lead is because he wants to escape, play, generally cause havoc. Have you tried a halti? (Also didn’t work for us, we bought a shock absorber lead and braced ourselves). A body harness worked to a degree….

He’s challenging you and he’s winning, it IS a battle of wills- you need to be much firmer.

What are you feeding him- 45kg is way too big for a lab. Get him insured if you haven’t already. His size is making him even more unmanageable. The vet will measure him around the head /chest and tell you an ideal weight.

Take him to the vet, see what they say rule out anything medical just in case and start a diet!

Does he get plenty of off lead time with other dogs?

He will calm down, but it could take years! I had a misconception that labs were calm, gentle creatures…. I couldn’t have been more wrong. He’s pulled DH and me off our feet - more than once, pulled over a pub bench, destroyed a fence by running through it, chewed, knocked me over, run away several times…. He’s much calmer now but they aren’t really cuddly dogs. He likes being rubbed, loves a fuss but that’s about it. He doesn’t curl up with us (thank god as he snores like hell). Labs aren’t really lap dogs.

Jumping up. Does he have a command that tells him all four feet must be on the floor? Our dog was a terrible jumper as a puppy and would launch himself so much he would flip over and land on his back when he out jumped his lead.

We taught him both up (so stood with paws on our legs) and off (all four paws on the floor), now as an 18month old dog he doesn’t jump up at all. Look at me was a good command for us as well, once the look at me command was fairly secure we used it when walking past other people, stood talking to someone etc alongside rewards at first, again, he is now very calm around people and has gone from wanting to greet everyone by jumping up etc, to essentially ignoring them unless they stroke him.

Ours took a long while to stop mouthing, his favourite was a good chomp on your upper arm, he also loved grabbing hold of your ear and giving it a good yank. He finally stopped at just over a year old.

Ours still bites and pulls the lead sometimes, when he does the walk stops until he sits and waits, even if it takes ages.

Engagement is really important, our dog is hand fed, so me and my husband are his only source of food. As a result he is very engaged with us, we also make an effort to each work him at least once a day to continue to reinforce engagement.

OP: He is fine with other dogs but other owners don't like him as he's so big and boisterous.

Above is not fine. It's fine for him (physically, though not in terms of improving his behaviour) but potentially can terrify or injure another animal.

PP: Does he get plenty of off lead time with other dogs?

He's absolutely not ready for that.

@Suzi888 thank you for your reply! It really helps to no I'm not alone. The biting is mouthing the odd time it's a bit too hard and it bruised but most of time just mildly painful. I agree if he wanted to hurt he could.!

He goes to a dog walker once a week who walks them off lead so he socialises there. We have family who have older dogs who ignore him. Other than that it's when we are out I tend to only let him off lead on big fields so his interaction with other dogs is limited. He has a no pull harness (useless) but good for holding if we need to. Lead we use on colliar. I considered a halti but I don't think we would get it on. I'm also considering a slip lead but a rope one not chain.

He is big we think maybe not full lab he has a slight look of German shepherd in his size but mum and dad were both labs. (Unless they lied about dad!) Mum looked bigger than average but was hard to tell as she laid feeding but dad was typical lab. He's not overweight for his size we did have him neutered at 9m don't know if it affects growth.

When did it start to get easier? Did you invest in any training? Thank you.

@Suzi888 previous dog was a basset hound very different kettle of fish!!!

@Simonjt we say 'off' then ignore until feet are on floor. He has improved with us but it's everyone else that's the issue. So if we visit family or family visit us he's jumping. If people approach in the street. The off command will work after a few jumps (obviously depends on how person reacts too)

He goes to a dog walker once a week who walks them off lead so he socialises there.

Dogs don’t need friends, socialising is a dog learning not to be scared, over excited, worried about things etc. It is not letting a dog who isn’t fully trained approach other dogs off lead.

@Simonjt look at me is a good idea I will try it thank you! The mouthing is draining really hoping it stops. Maybe I need to stop the walk entirely rather than wait for him to return and re start as he gets back. Thank you!

@villainousbroodmare

OP: He is fine with other dogs but other owners don't like him as he's so big and boisterous.

Above is not fine. It's fine for him (physically, though not in terms of improving his behaviour) but potentially can terrify or injure another animal.

PP: Does he get plenty of off lead time with other dogs?

He's absolutely not ready for that.

I meant fine as in not aggressive, not alpha. He just wants to play and jump around but his size creates an issue as potentially he could hurt/frighten a smaller or older dog. How do you suggest modifying his behaviour around other dogs?

@Simonjt

He goes to a dog walker once a week who walks them off lead so he socialises there.

Dogs don’t need friends, socialising is a dog learning not to be scared, over excited, worried about things etc. It is not letting a dog who isn’t fully trained approach other dogs off lead.

She walks a few together the other dogs are all older better trained so hoping it's teaching him. What's the best way to socialise a dog?

You are well past the socialising window. Personally I'd stop the off lead walking. He's not socialising, the others aren't teaching him anything, and he's just having a great time with loads of freedom. Why would he walk nicely, recall, not jump up etc when he knows that once he's off the lead he can do what ever he wants. Don't allow him off lead to 'play' as it's not fair on the other dogs or their walkers.

He's basically a teenager pushing boundaries.

I'd go right back to basics and take small steps.

If you've not had a look already on Facebook, dog training advice and support is worth a look.

I'm afraid 45 kg is big even if he is mixed with a German Shepherd. What are you feeding him? GSDs are lean, they only look big because they have so much hair. How tall is he? That's incredibly heavy tbh.

The website thelabradorsite is very good for training, you need to go right back to basics and things will flow from there.

Off lead walking doesn't sound like a great idea for him, just reinforcing him behaving as he wants to, he won't learn off other dogs at this stage.

Good luck.

@Bearyhumcrack thanks for reply. I don't walk him off lead he only goes off lead for training. I try to pick quiet fields so he can concentrate. Dog walker walks him on lead but off lead in private fields. I've not got a tape measure to hand hes face /ears lab but body is roughly size of a German shepherd so definitely bigger than average lab. Last time vet weighed/examined him the said he was not over weight for size( I did query it) he has AVA dog food which is grain free. I give him slightly under recommended amount as I use chicken for training .

She walks a few together the other dogs are all older better trained so hoping it's teaching him. What's the best way to socialise a dog?

By teaching them to ignore as young puppies. You have to remember at a year old the behaviour is ingrained, so it will take a long to fix and for that fix to be reliable, but with effort and consistency it can be done. You need to teach your dog to ignore other dogs, part of that is making sure the dog is engaged with you when passing other dogs, rather than losing engagement and focusing on the dog. Start with dogs at a distance, if needed in the first few weeks cross the road to avoid very close contact with dogs as that will undo the work you put in. Absolutely no off lead walks unless there are no other dogs in the area and I would also stop the dog walker unless you switch to 1:1 walks.

My main comment was going to be that you hadn't mentioned him being neutered as I thought that could calm him down a lot. But you have done that, so my next question is was he from a working Labrador family, or a many seasons pet lab? Because working labs need lots of stimulation and exercise. I know it sounds like you are devoting a lot of time to him, but it has changed quite a bit with the different trainers (I'm not blaming you at all for this, the ideal would be that every breed has a well established and confirmed standard that all trainers train to, unfortunately I have never heard of this happening across the board, but If anyone has I would love to know about it please).

I wish (as a family - live in - member to a now old man lab) that I had some advice I could give you. Ours did stop mouthing his usual family members within the first year, but when someone came to visit that he hadn't seen since he was a younger puppy, he would get all excited and nip their ears and noses like he used to. That would elicit a loud yelp from the human and immediate hands down, and ignoring Ddog until he calmed down. The initial yelp seemed to stop him in his tracks, so that seemed to work well.

If he comes from generations of pet labradors, I think I would try and stop having professional trainers for a while, maybe he might benefit from things being a bit more relaxed for a while, which might help you to feel more relaxed too. I am not suggesting giving up all training, but maybe stick to the basics both while at home and outside for a little while. Ours never managed a reliable recall - if food was being offered elsewhere his selective deafness was amazing! So unfortunately he only got 'off the lead' time in his own garden (obviously), and in out of the way, and not near to roads, countryside. I have heard that in the US they have enclosed grassy areas just for dogs (and their humans!), I wish we had that in England. As our Dboy is not off the lead in public, we didn't have a problem with him jumping up at strangers, and at home all his human family loved the way he greeted them! With the younger children we held him by the collar until he had a chance to greet them gently, and after that he seemed to understand not to be 'jumpy' with them. I am using past tense because our poor dear thing is too arthritic now to jump at people, but he still has a great tail wag 😊

As for his feeding, from the very start we would move his feeding bowl away from him, part way through, for a few seconds, and sometimes stroke him while he was eating, as we never wanted him to 'guard' his food. He has never once shown aggression with his food - except for when he was once given something like a pigs ear for a treat, he growled at me when I went near to him, so I instinctively growled back (I am not saying that was the right thing to do, it just happened!) Then although I hadn't been going to take it off him, I did, very matter of factly with no fear (but again that might have been stupid when a largish dog with big teeth has just growled at you!), and whilst talking to him quite softly, but firmly. He let me do so with no protest whatsoever, but many dogs would not take that kindly, so I can't advise that as the thing to do. Also, luckily, it seems, ours has always been a far too big lap dog. He loved cuddles, and scratches and kisses, and still loves a little scratch, a few kisses, and always loves being told how good he is, and how much we love him.

Good luck OP, I am sure you will get some amazing advice on here from dog people who really know what they are talking about.
ps. Our labrador retriever has never shown the slightest interest in retrieving, but has kept his gun dog credentials in never being bothered by loud noises eg fireworks ☺

As for his feeding, from the very start we would move his feeding bowl away from him, part way through, for a few seconds, and sometimes stroke him while he was eating, as we never wanted him to 'guard' his food.

This is more likely to teach guarding, removing food, toys etc from dogs teaches them they need to protect their resources. Your dog has shown aggression around food by growling when you approach.

I'm a first time dog owner and the resources that I have used to help me train my year old dog are the Dog Training Advice and Support Facebook group with some of the Sexier than a squirrel games and ideas thrown in.

I'm not experienced but, from what I've read, I don't think the issues that you are describing sound insurmountable and I'm sure that when you get a plan to tackle the unwanted behaviours you'll feel much more in control and will soon be on the right track again.

Good luck

You mention you use chicken for training - do you still attend classes?

Before going down the (expensive) route of behaviourist, you could check whether any reputable trainers do ‘delinquent” classes or classes for older dogs.

I also think that by discussing things from the perspective of a lab, we are ignoring the part that seems to be GSD. They are very different breeds - basically labs are tarts, go with anyone, generally listen to anyone; GSD look for leadership, also very easily distracted, very intelligent and may need a different approach.

10 month old lab and 45kg!! To be honest,my first reaction reading thread was,please rehome this poor dog.he will be crippled with arthritis by the age of 2 and suffer diabetes.it is animal cruelty to let a young dog get that obese.I am sure the vet has told you the dog needs to loose weight urgently.you ignore this and you most likely will ignore a trainers advice in regards to training.

You should not approach your dog while it's eating to take its bowl off it - all you're teaching it is that you approaching is bad news and make it more likely to guard

It sounds like you've had lots of mixed and conflicting advice here.

First off I think you need to get him seen by a vet and checked over. His weight is extreme for a Labrador so I'd want to make sure he's healthy. Can you see a defined tuck at the waist and feel or see his ribs at all?

Secondly, a lot of his behaviour and lack of impulse control is adolescence which is unfortunately made worse by his size as it makes him much harder to control than say, a chihuahua. Big dogs are strong dogs and can do a lot of unintentional damage.

However if his recall is unreliable he must be on lead at all times unless he's in a secure field somewhere. It's not fair on other walkers to have a massive adolescent labrador bounding over to them and jumping everywhere. It could also really scare other dogs and cause them to become reactive.

Unfortunately what you've been doing with the shaking the bottle and touching his food bowl is not good practise and has likely caused some of the poor behaviour. Always, always leave dogs alone while they eat - they should never feel threatened or like they need to guard their food. Shaking a bottle full of stones is an aversive technique that just causes dogs to be scared. You need to use constant positive reinforcement to get your dog to behave - ignore the bad behaviour and ask for an alternate, good behaviour and reward that instead.

A quick google says an adult male lab should be 35kg max and an adult male GSD 40kg so surely he must be overweight. They aren't giant breeds.

Labs can be particularly delinquent in the teenager phase, we've had several given to us as the owners could no longer cope.
All of them settled into wonderful companions, but it takes time and patience.
A good routine is essential, so everything is kept to a good routine, exercise, food, training, grooming etc.
Dogs should never be disturbed when eating or sleeping imo and leaving alone should resolve guarding issues.
Exercise is another important element, is he getting sufficient age appropriate exercise on a regular basis? My dogs are often transformed with plenty of activity. Also playing games to get him listening to you, hiding an object and getting them to find and fetch it always goes down well here.
Pulling on the lead, when ours did this we stopped completely until the pulling stopped and only started when they weren't pulling again, it took time and you feel a fool doing it, but it worked for ours.
Labs are usually either lazy lumps or hyper, but they nearly always want to please, the trick is making them interested in you and listening, but it isn't always a quick fix.

Hi I didn't post about moving food? One of replies did. The bottle shake I agree with which is why we didn't return to that dog trainer. I don't walk him off lead unless we are in a secure area alone. His recall is great except when other dogs are there.

I double checked weight it's actually 42kg as I said we think he's part German shepherd and he has been to vet who said not over weight.