Please help

[wishfuldogowner]

Hi sorry this may be a long one. We have a 12m lab, he's not our first dog and we did lots of research before choosing him. We started straining at 10 weeks and enrolled in puppy classes at 4m. We were seeing progress but it all went to pot around 5/6m. It doesn't help he's a big dog. (Around 45kg now) the issues are -

Jumping up (mainly at others) - we ignore this which works mostly but doesn't help with other people
Biting - never improved now uses it to show annoyance ie on way home from walk or if taking away something he shouldn't have
Pulling on lead - this started about 5m we stop and make him walk back. He does it then immediately starts to pull again. I tried the change direction but he pulled then too. We do heel work during walk he can doit but on his terms he will move away if had enough. Treats he will accept then move immediately after.
Recall- he's great unless he sees another dog. He is fine with other dogs but other owners don't like him as he's so big and boisterous
Jumping up when we are eating/busy- we try to get him to sit and reward but he just comes back. Treats he gobbles down, chews/toys he ignores.
Biting lead- if we use it in house ie if visitors are there or at other peoples houses he will go mad and bite/pull lead. Also does it on way home from walk we try to ignore it/not engage

We just don't know what to do. The puppy classes were reward based and worked to a point. When we tried to reduce treats he stopped responding as well and now he will follow commands for treats if he wants to he's not that bothered. We got a second trainer at 10m she told us to shake a bottle at him or spray water in his face. We tried the bottle, he became aggressive so we stopped and didn't go back. We have had two sessions with a new trainer who teaches through play he's enjoying it but if I try to add commands in sit, wait etc he sometimes does it or just ignores me. It feels like a constant battle of wills. I find it frustrating because I spend hours everyday walking/training/ playing with him for little or no reward. He's not affectionate or cuddly and doesn't give back.

I'm sorry it's so long just wondering if anyone has any ideas that worked for them or people who had similar experience and it got better or is anyone struggling like me? Thanks

This is my boy 🐶

@wishfuldogowner

Hi I didn't post about moving food? One of replies did. The bottle shake I agree with which is why we didn't return to that dog trainer. I don't walk him off lead unless we are in a secure area alone. His recall is great except when other dogs are there.

Ah sorry OP, I hadn't had my coffee when I posted my response

Your boy is absolutely stunning by the way!

@wishfuldogowner

This is my boy 🐶

😍

Lots of what you describe sound like a particularly 'enthusiastic' teenage dog. So firstly know that whilst none of the desribed behaviour is ideal, none is particularly unusual either. So you don't have an abnormal one .

But you do sound overwhelmed and I think it is hard to give the right advice online for multiple issues like this, and get real change. I think you need someone with you who can show you, work with you and give you tips as you go along. Otheriwse it's too much information and too many changes for you to make alone. Find a good dog trainer (one who uses scientific methods) and look for a few one-on-one lessons in your home where they can see how you are interacting with the dog and help you.

However, in an absolute nuthshell, dogs only ever dog what works. If you want them to do something diffrent then you manipulate the situation so that what they are doing no longer works and what you want them to do works better.

So: biting you when you take something away from him? It's very hard to bite you and eat chicken at the same time. So he has a sock, throw down a bit of chicken nearby (or a few bits to keep him busy for a while) and pick the sock up. He cannot eat the sock, bite you and have the chicken

You are not rewarding him for sock stealing - though eventually you may find you get a dog who brings you a sock to see if he can buy some chicken with it! - but you are showing him that no one is going to take anything away from him that he;s not already dropped for something better.

If you do this enough, you tend to be able to shape it into him giving you the sock happily and then, in a pinch, you will be able to take socks off him without treats because you've built up lots of experience when giving up the sock gets him chicken, so it's not a problem for him anymore.

Recall? A lead is your answer here and he won't be the first teenage dog to find he spends months 10-24 almost always on a lead unless you really are walking somewhere deserted. Better to keep him on a lead for these months than have him practice running off to other dogs all the time. In safer areas, such as secure fields or out in the open where you can see you are alone then keep up the recall for treats practice. It's a security bond for the future when he's trusted back off lead again.

For all the situations you describe, a good trainer can work with you to find ways to handle them like above - so that the dog wants to do what you want him to do, because he has learned that is the best way to get something good.

Sorry not read all replies yet.

Thanks @SirSniffsAlot really reassuring and your right it's probably more an overwhelmed rant than anything!

No worries @fairylightsandwaxmelts

If you're happy with the new trainer then I think you might just need to give it time. It will improve but it's not going to happen overnight. And remember that training is not always a linear progression, sometimes things go backwards but you can go forwards again.

I think lots of people make the mistake of going to puppy classes and then not continuing formal training, I think especially with labs and their extended adolescence you really need the continued training unless you know what you're doing.

As above - labs really are teenagers a lot longer than lots of other breeds

Aw he is beautiful 🥰

You might change his food. I tried AVA ( from pets @ home) once and it made my junior loopy. Wouldn’t settle, silly and completely OTT. Try something else and I’d recommend Millies Wolfheart which I’ve found to be excellent for mine. Worth a try.

Dogs don’t need friends

I don't agree with this, especially not for labs. Yes, they don't need to make friends with every dog they meet but having one social walk a week with other labs did wonders for my adolescent lab who'll now look to me to see if they can play if she spots another dog. She's learnt that there's times she can play and times she can't.

I also agree with @SpaceDetective that many young dogs thrive on play with other dogs.

I know the popular view on MN is that dogs should always ignore each other on walks but in real life, I see dogs playing daily and they always seem to have be having a good time.

How did you teach that @SpaceDetective ?

Our 6 month old lab will now wait with me for a while when she sees another dog rather than bounding straight off but she will still eventually go to them when we get close if I leave her off the lead.

@Simonjt

As for his feeding, from the very start we would move his feeding bowl away from him, part way through, for a few seconds, and sometimes stroke him while he was eating, as we never wanted him to 'guard' his food.

This is more likely to teach guarding, removing food, toys etc from dogs teaches them they need to protect their resources. Your dog has shown aggression around food by growling when you approach.

@Simonjt. It was me that posted about moving his food (a couple of inches, started since we first had him as a puppy). I have done this with all my dogs - even older rescue ones once they are settled and happily bonded - the food is never out of their sight, and none of my dogs has ever shown any aggression over their food, except our labrador the one time that I talked about, and that wasn't his normal food, it was a treat that he had never had before, and I hadn't gone near him to take it away, I was just passing and went to put my hand on top of his head for a few seconds (I have never actually taken away any of my dogs main food or treats, they are entitled to enjoy their food without that worry!), but when he growled I wasn't going to let him get away with that, so I did what I said I did - the first part - growling back at him - was just by natural instinct - the treat was never out of his sight, and we very quickly kissed and made up. He has never done it again, with that type of treat, or any others.

I hope I made it clear to the OP that I was not saying that any of the methods I have used were necessarily good for any other dog (you do hopefully learn your individual dog's character whatever breed they are), and I will add that whenever you do something new with a dog, however well you think you know it, you have to be prepared for the worst outcome, that it will bite you. If any of my dogs had ever bitten me during training sessions I would have blamed myself, not the dog! I have never chastised a dog in any threatening way, none of them ever had any reason to be afraid of me or my actions (my one growl that time was a "grrr to you too" reaction, and he just looked a bit confused, I took the treat out of his mouth - he didn't resit me doing that - I held it out of his reach for a few seconds, then he licked me, and I kissed him back, and gave him his treat back.

The last time I was bitten by a dog was on my face when I was 7 years old. It was by my Yorkshire terrier, and I told my mum that it was my fault for playing with him too roughly (it was my fault, but I hadn't realised that I was being too rough, our last dog had been a much bigger mutt, who was very laid back, and I hadn't understood that my little dog needed treating differently, but I was a quick learner after that - if I remember correctly, I aplogised to my dog).

A fully grown adult male Labrador weighs max 36kg.It looks like your scale doesnt work properly.most people would look at the pic and say your dog is not overweight.I happen to disagree as most vets would.I used to own a Bernese Mountain dog(a giant breed) she weight 38kg.The Kennel Club is really into breeding heavy bulky Labradors.A far cry from the athletic,fit looking working Labrador.My heart feels sad what humans do to breeds.

Ps.how do you weigh your 42kg dog?

OP you have been given a lot of poor advice on this thread.

Contact your original training who had methods that worked and have a 121 to get back on track with the issues you have today.

They are common issues and there are easy straight forward ways to train new behaviour

I would ditch the new trainer asap 1. if training dogs was as easy as shaking a bottle at them there would be no badly behaved dogs and as you have noted they have actually made the behaviour worse eg biting etc.

Your issues are everyday run of the mill normal teenage lab behaviour and are easy to solve with correct training advice.

This too will pass for you

@fairylightsandwaxmelts

I also agree with *@SpaceDetective* that many young dogs thrive on play with other dogs.

I know the popular view on MN is that dogs should always ignore each other on walks but in real life, I see dogs playing daily and they always seem to have be having a good time.

For young over aroused adolescent dogs the worst thing you can do is to let them have free rough and tumble with other dogs.

If the greeting is controlled and under cue and recall can be managed.

To know if your dog is in a position to play sensibly with othe dogs they need to be able to show impulse control in greeting the dogs and go when cued and be able to recall from the other dog. Without that criteria I would not be letting adolescent dogs choose who to play with.

Train for the situation not in the situation!

@Chuechebache

10 month old lab and 45kg!! To be honest,my first reaction reading thread was,please rehome this poor dog.he will be crippled with arthritis by the age of 2 and suffer diabetes.it is animal cruelty to let a young dog get that obese.I am sure the vet has told you the dog needs to loose weight urgently.you ignore this and you most likely will ignore a trainers advice in regards to training.

My Dsis has a working lab fox red- he's 43KG and I can tell you that's mainly muscle (I can see his ribs when he stretches and runs full pelt).Vet says he is, if anything, slightly underweight. but he is very active, My lab is a little female at 26KG - again working line and feels more covered than my Dsis's dog, although she's around correct weight. They are both young dogs. So it does vary ??

I would ditch the new trainer asap

She's already ditched the trainer recommending bottles and shaking, and started with a 3rd trainer?

@wishfuldogowner

This is my boy 🐶

for goodness sake, that doesn't look overweight! OP, ask a vet if you like, I was told they need to have a bit of a waist and you should be able to feel their ribs like under a blanket not a duvet!! And as PP say - please check out that FB group. My young lab is a dream, I am so so lucky but she does slip up occasionally and forget herself! Same age as yours!! pic for you

Yep, he's a teenager
And definitely not overweight, he looks strong (unfortunately for you though)

I have a 5 yr old border collie and she still bites the lead and tries to boss me around, luckily she's only approx 20kg so much easier!

Some dogs take longer to mature and some never become placid lovable lumps, the GSD mix will definitely affect the Lab characteristics but you will eventually have a fiercely loyal best friend when he calms down a bit.

I frequently mention them here but Absolute Dogs are great for difficult dogs and training tips.
You've had lots of good tips (definitely don't follow any aversive methods, will make any aggressive tendencies worse usually).

Good luck, he is a handsome boy!

I know people who had 5 different trainers and still have the same problems.some people never follow training advice,once they are left to their own device.poor advice here indeed!

I’d ignore the majority of the advice on this post and start looking at decent training. There’s an online training group called Southend Dog Training who could probably offer loads of great advice. Or the previously mentioned Facebook group called Dog training advice and support, although they work quite differently to each other. Definitely stay away from the trainer who advised you to shake a bottle at him. He is just a big energetic, adolescent dog who hasn’t been taught boundaries - his size isn’t an excuse though, the smallest dog I’ve ever owned was 45kg and I wouldn’t have accepted that kind of behaviour. I’m sure with appropriate training he will grow into a fabulous dog.

Southend Dog Training promote the use of prong collars and very aversive training. They will encourage harsher methods than a rattle bottle. Avoid at all costs.

@Chuechebache

10 month old lab and 45kg!! To be honest,my first reaction reading thread was,please rehome this poor dog.he will be crippled with arthritis by the age of 2 and suffer diabetes.it is animal cruelty to let a young dog get that obese.I am sure the vet has told you the dog needs to loose weight urgently.you ignore this and you most likely will ignore a trainers advice in regards to training.

The vet has said the dog is not overweight according to OP. It’s not cruelty so calm down However, I agree that’s big. We have a Goldie (usually bigger than Labs) and he’s 40kg and could lose a couple