At what point do we accept it's not working?

[Ilookedatthesea]

Ddog is 8 months old. He's a cocker spaniel. It was a very, very long considered purchase 10+ years in the planning and we have always been around dogs although he's our first as a couple. Although we got him in lockdown he's very much not a "lockdown puppy" impulse purchase - just happened to be when the litter was born. We've done puppy classes for 6 months. Not helping.

Here's the problems:-

• He's huge. Twice the size of any cocker spaniel we know (and we know lots). We met mum and dad but he's far, far bigger than them and we wonder now if we were told the truth (despite doing as much research as I think we could). He's much bigger and stronger than we expected and I'm struggling to hold him on walks. He's much bigger even than a springer and is closer to a labrador in size.
• despite being walked at least twice a day, usually 3 times and covering a good 5+ miles, he's relentless. He's not left alone apart from going to shops/school run etc and has company all day but is still so destructive. He's destroyed the house and the garden. He's not left unattended to do these things but we'll give him a kong/chew, turn our backs for a moment and he'll take his chance.
• Neither of us have any bond with him. I don't know why this is, we wanted him so much but neither of us feel any bond at all.
• his sleep is horrific. He's up now at 1am having woken at 12 howling. We've in a semi so can't leave him to howl because of the neighbours. Despite being up in the night, he'll be up at 5am for the day. We haven't had 8 hours sleep in 6 months.

I think we could cope with his behaviour if we loved him but it's becoming increasingly clear that we don't and we don't have the bond other people do and it's not coming.

At what point do we accept we aren't a good fit together? I feel horrendous even saying it- I would have judged others in our position so much but we are at our whits end and it's hugely affecting our mental and physical health and I'm not sure how much longer we can go on like this.

His size aside (send a picture to the breeder and question the parentage)

• Do you enjoy being with your dog?
• How do you actually interact with your dog?
• Do you trust your dog?

Building a bond / friendship is hard work. It takes dedication and time. Positive reinforcement training is usually very good. But other things like playing tug or fetch, grooming and even hand feeding will help to build that bond. If you don't like or enjoy this, don't have a pet dog!

Oh no! I have no helpful advice really, just a biggish silly dog of around the same age and we are having some similar but lesser issues but I largely feel that DDog is improving though I often feel a bit ashamed of her naughtiness while out. I seem to manage her quite well but DP and DD still find her very full on.

I wonder if it’s worth a one to one trainer rather than puppy class, I still feel ‘bottom of the class’ even though realistically I can see others are struggling. Both our trainer and vet suggested teaching lots of tricks, I’m not terribly good but we do a bit, plus playing with a tuggy toy, really playing pulling her, up, about, throwing it, getting her to drop it, really seems to satisfy her and wear her out, plus we don’t go miles on her walks but we try different stuff, like go into the woods and maybe throw a ball or treat into the undergrowth to find, go on the bus (lots of treats to get her used to it) or a quiet place to throw a ball. We have also recently found a dog walker who absolutely adores her and is working on recall with her.

But I wouldn’t blame you for looking into rehoming if done through a reputable rescue, it sounds very difficult and you really sound like you have tried very hard. Best of luck!!

Poor dog , he’s little more than a baby . The chewing / destroying the house is I’m afraid down to you not supervising properly , no dog does that much damage in a few seconds . Where does he sleep and do you have a good bedtime routine ? As for the pulling on the lead that is down to consistent training and he is only 8 months old . I’m sorry if I don’t sound too sympathetic but the problems you have ( except the sleep) are extremely common in dogs of that age and your post reads as if you expected a perfect family pet , and perfect family pets aren’t generally born they are the product of many months / years of effort and work .

@Ylvamoon thank you. To answer your questions:-

• honestly no, we don't enjoy being with him.
• I do trust him, he's not snappy or anything like that. Great with kids and very friendly.
• we play with him constantly, have tons of toys. Make sure to be very positive, do lots of training, lots of playing fetch/tug/hiding toys/doing training games, we groom him ourselves etc.

@Mediumred thank you for the sympathy. It helps to know others aren't finding it easy either! We've done one on one and classes and he didn't seem to get anything out of either. The trainers (we've tried two) couldn't get him to concentrate either.

@Floralnomad I understand and if the shoe was on the other foot I wouldn't be sympathetic either!

We certainly didn't expect perfection. We've both had puppies before with parents and always been around dogs. He's never left unsupervised. I wouldn't believe he could cause as much damage as he does in seconds if I hadn't seen it!

I am also regretting our dog. We were on a list for a long time and was wanted. I grew up with dogs but nothing like this one. He is destructive but we can manage that, my biggest issue is I don’t trust him at all. He will snap whenever I try to stop him doing something. I won’t take him out for walks anymore as he pulls on the lead so hard, I have to use both hands to try to shorten the lead and I come home with shaking arms from continuously pulling him. It’s awful. I have no bond with him at all.
If you are both in agreement I’d try to rehome him. One of my kids and DH like our dog and spend a lot of time walking him and cuddling him. I am so worried he will bite my child. I very much wish we’d never set eyes on him.

@Floralnomad

Poor dog , he’s little more than a baby . The chewing / destroying the house is I’m afraid down to you not supervising properly , no dog does that much damage in a few seconds . Where does he sleep and do you have a good bedtime routine ? As for the pulling on the lead that is down to consistent training and he is only 8 months old . I’m sorry if I don’t sound too sympathetic but the problems you have ( except the sleep) are extremely common in dogs of that age and your post reads as if you expected a perfect family pet , and perfect family pets aren’t generally born they are the product of many months / years of effort and work .

This. He's still a baby. Puppies are extremely hard work. If you have no feelings toward him, rehome him to someone who will.

@Ilookedatthesea I think you should re home the dog. Dogs are quite sensitive to our emotions, they are experts at fine tuning into our highs a lows. If you don't enjoy interaction with the dog, he will know.
Often a dogs behaviour is a reaction to your emotions - if you feel that he's unable to concentrate during training, he won't concentrate. He is to busy trying to make sense of your negative energy.

You did your research but didn’t come across anything about puppies being relentless, destructive and not sleeping through the night?And you say you don’t love him. Unbelievable.

Rehome your poor dog and don’t even think about getting another. I’d love to say what I think of you but I’d be deleted. 🤬🤬🤬

Does he have somewhere quiet to go and settle? I'm wondering if he is over stimulated with that many walks, access all areas and so much play

I have a WCS who I got from a puppy who is almost 5 years old.

The chewing. If he can destroy things when you turn your back then you haven't puppy proofed the house and are not supervising correctly. I think we ended up with a couple of mats that were chewed but things were removed for up to the first year. Mine use to like chewing and swinging from the floor length blinds so they were tied up and removed for many months. Shoes were kept in one room behind a door. Areas were cordoned off in the garden. I could go on but essentially why are things left out for him to destroy? When he could be trusted we slowly introduced items back to their original place but not until I knew he would not chew them so he was never 'destructive' and therefore he didn't develop any bad chewing habits.

The sleep. Mine has always had poor sleep. Some of it I think came from him being up a lot in the night due to stomach problems but anyway yes the sleep was so bad that at 2 years of age we let him sleep on our bed to get more of it. This one I do sympathise because it's something that still isn't great even now but I suck it up because he's my dog with sleeping 'issues'.

It sounds like you walk and play and never leave him alone. This isn't the way to tire a dog out and definitely not a cocker. Walking and walking makes them fitter and fitter. You need to make sure he learns to relax. Mine sits and snoozes by me all day when I am working at home but it didn't happen overnight and we made 'boring' times in areas where he couldn't chew anything and both of us would just sit quietly.

At 8 months you are in teenage phase so yes they will push boundaries but that is expected.

You specifically asked when should you accept it isn't working. It isn't now and yes I have been through bloody awful times with my dog so I am not saying this from a place of having a perfectly behaved spaniel. I would expect you to have engaged with 1-1 trainers specifically those that understand cocker spaniels (not sure if working or show from your op but if working then trainers who understand gun dog breeds). They can work with you in the home to address all the issues you have. I would recommend training such as scent work (get a trainer given your struggles to show you rather than trying to do it reading the internet) where your cocker can use his nose and both of you have to work together to develop that bond.

@Dancingonmoonlight I'm sorry to hear you're having such a difficult time as well. We are fortune that snapping isn't an issue but I can only imagine how on edge you must be.

@PandemicPalava yes he is crate trained and we enforce naps in there if he won't settle to make sure he's resting.

@SupermanInk as I said, before we were in this position I would have judged us too and no, I've never known a puppy who still isn't sleeping through the night at 8 months old.

@BiteyShark yes, we've puppy proofed. The things he's destroying are things we can't move - sofa, chairs etc and we proofed to the size we expected him to be but he's twice that so he jumps up and gets things from shelves that are way above where we thought he could reach.

If you don’t like the dog, rehome him. He sounds very rehomeable. Don’t beat yourself up.

To me it sounds like puppy behaviour that will get better. Took me a while to get the point of our puppy but I adore her now.

We had a cocker after lots of sprinters. Our problem was he super bright.

But our dogs always had a lot of down time. A short out for a pee and a poo in the morning.

Proper walk in the evening. Left to their own devices the rest of the time just hanging with us. Or each other when I was at work.

Never really had a solo dog though. Although the cocker really would have been happier solo. He made his own amusement.

No advice except for he's getting a lot of stimulation and it's not helpful. He needs to work out how to amuse himself without destroying stuff.

Thank you @BarkingUpTheWrongRoseBush. How long did it take you to feel a bond?

It really sounds like you need to train him better. Train him not to pull on the lead or Not to destroy things, puppies aren't born knowing these things. Playing with him is grand but he needs boundaries too. At the moment it sounds like he rules your household, you need to take that control back. I definitely reccomended getting a trainer and putting the work into training the dog properly.

[quote Ilookedatthesea]@BiteyShark yes, we've puppy proofed. The things he's destroying are things we can't move - sofa, chairs etc and we proofed to the size we expected him to be but he's twice that so he jumps up and gets things from shelves that are way above where we thought he could reach.[/quote]
Move the things off the shelves.

I have a playpen that you can open out to cordon areas off so use one of those to limit areas in the room.

Have you stepped back and thought about your behaviour not just the dogs? When are you doing when he tries to destroy objects? Are you rewarding him without realising by giving him attention he craves? Do you then distract him with toys so this gets you to play with him?

This is why you need a good 1-1 trainer to observe you both in the home to understand the interaction as it's not just about the dog but about your behaviour as well as it's very easy to reinforce 'bad' behaviour unintentionally.

@BiteyShark thank you. I think we'll look into that. We've done 1-1 training out the house but not in the house yet so that might help.

You have an adolescent dog - they are usually far harder than young puppies in the way human teenage years are frequently the hardest, and anywhere to read up about dog ownership will tell you that so it shouldn't be a surprise. It doesn't sound like he is crate trained, at least not properly if he's howling at midnight. The idea is to teach them to settle in it before shutting them in and not leave them to cry even for a second. It's absolutely normal for 8 month olds not to sleep through the night even though some do. No different to human babies / it varies massively. Ddog usually gets up at around 1 too and again at 5.30 she comes and wakes me up then saunters off again. Annoying but it is what it is. She's over a year old now.
Have you contacted the breeder about the dogs size? Have you had some 1:1 training with a specialist (gun dog or one specific to your problems) trainer or behaviourist? Puppy classes aren't going to cut it here. I think that's the least you should do before rehome (although difficult if none of you like the dog as the motivation and bond won't be there which really you need to train a dog).

1-1 In the house is so much better than in a group and it sounds like it is mostly in the house that's a problem. Often if you can crack a lot of the 'issues' others become more manageable.

And don't worry about him being 8 months old. I only concentrated on certain things when mine was young due to his health problems. We have done 1-1 training at various points of his life and you can achieve a lot in such a short timeframe because you get very specific advice tailored to what you want. It might seem expensive but a £30 1-1 hour session I think achieves far far more than say an 8 week group session.

You say you have tried 1:1 training. For how long? What did they say?