At what point do we accept it's not working?

[Ilookedatthesea]

Ddog is 8 months old. He's a cocker spaniel. It was a very, very long considered purchase 10+ years in the planning and we have always been around dogs although he's our first as a couple. Although we got him in lockdown he's very much not a "lockdown puppy" impulse purchase - just happened to be when the litter was born. We've done puppy classes for 6 months. Not helping.

Here's the problems:-

• He's huge. Twice the size of any cocker spaniel we know (and we know lots). We met mum and dad but he's far, far bigger than them and we wonder now if we were told the truth (despite doing as much research as I think we could). He's much bigger and stronger than we expected and I'm struggling to hold him on walks. He's much bigger even than a springer and is closer to a labrador in size.
• despite being walked at least twice a day, usually 3 times and covering a good 5+ miles, he's relentless. He's not left alone apart from going to shops/school run etc and has company all day but is still so destructive. He's destroyed the house and the garden. He's not left unattended to do these things but we'll give him a kong/chew, turn our backs for a moment and he'll take his chance.
• Neither of us have any bond with him. I don't know why this is, we wanted him so much but neither of us feel any bond at all.
• his sleep is horrific. He's up now at 1am having woken at 12 howling. We've in a semi so can't leave him to howl because of the neighbours. Despite being up in the night, he'll be up at 5am for the day. We haven't had 8 hours sleep in 6 months.

I think we could cope with his behaviour if we loved him but it's becoming increasingly clear that we don't and we don't have the bond other people do and it's not coming.

At what point do we accept we aren't a good fit together? I feel horrendous even saying it- I would have judged others in our position so much but we are at our whits end and it's hugely affecting our mental and physical health and I'm not sure how much longer we can go on like this.

@BiteyShark thank you.

What about gun dog training or scent work - something that gives him a job and channels his natural instincts?

You have my sympathy op, puppies are hard work at the best of times but like babies, some are easier than others.

My father has always had cockers and they have varied hugely in personality and how they were as puppies. He has always had more than one though and often the older dog(s) will guide the behaviour of the younger. He often says puppies are harder work than babies and teh first 18 months are just a blur of hard work and chewed slippers!

You have a hard decision to make op, but there’s no point in continuing if your lives (dog and human) aren’t working out. It may be he is more suited to a more active home with other dogs. Even though you do ensure he gets plenty of exercise, some dogs are unable to settle unless they are completely exhausted.

Thank you @Dentistlakes

How heavy is he? We have a large WCS around 11 months who is a handful (but we do love him!).

There is absolutely no way we could crate him btw - he would go mental. We started with him sleeping downstairs but he now sleeps upstairs with us - something we said we would never do. The reason for it? Downstairs we don't have curtains on the living room sliding doors so every ant that walked past the window would disturb him and he would start barking. He now sleeps on the floor in our room and is absolutely fine. I know you may not want to consider it, but I would think about it just to get some sleep! I think he would prefer to sleep downstairs but we are in a terraced house and we can't have him barking at night.

I second @BiteyShark suggestion - we have a 1:1 gundog trainer for him and his behaviour has improved immeasurably but it's a long haul!

He also might be overtired. Cockers are famous for FOMO! So tend to not sleep as much as they should!

I have always had cocker spaniels so will try to help. I am working on the assumption he is a working cocker spaniel.

Cockers vary hugely in size. So do springers. They are essentially the same dog. Springers were the large ones cockers the small. You could have 2 dogs from the same litter and one would have been a cocker and one a springer.

Now it's not like that, but dogs genes can throw back generations. Lots of lines have springer in somewhere fairly recently. Because one of the dogs isn't know to have been a sprocker. I am guessing there's not generations of verified parentage. Springers can also be huge.

Unfortunately, this results in owners getting dogs that are far bigger than expected. One of my cockers is 7.8kg and tiny. I fostered the litter and am still in touch with the other owners. Her brother is 15kg and massive in comparison.

At 8 months old, 5 miles a day is alot. Cockers and springers do need exercise. But there's a fine line between enough exercise and too much. At 8 months a walk should about 40 mins at most. Though this is on lead. Could be longer if off lead. But it still sounds like alot.

And anbover tired spaniel can be worse behaved than an under exercised spaniel.

Brain training, is just an important as physically exercise. Potentially more important. You need to do training, brain games, scent games. Have their brain working, but again too much can make them crazy. With working spaniels you have a while of trying to walk the fine line of enough, but not too much. It is a fine line, until they are an adult. When they have grown up and are fully trained they could go all day.

Having company isn't really enough, they need interaction.

You also have the teenage phase, where training goes out of the window in some cases and you have to start again.

How's is his recall? How is he on walks. Do you work him on walks. By this I mean let him sniff and explore, but also work his brain. So we have the kids play hide and seek, let the kids run off and call the dog then we call them back, recall them regularly and have the dogs focus on us. Our dogs always have an eye on where we are.

I would usually recommend a trainer that works with Working dogs. But my main concern here is that you simply don't like him.

If you have no bond, everything is going to be harder. Spaniels love their owners and if there's a good bond training is easier. They want to please their owners.

If you don't like the dog and can't provide a house that's suitable for a working dog, it may be better to rehome him. I would recommend Spaniel Assist rescue and rehoming, they will find a home that's suitable for him and provide the Foster family with trainers and behaviourists if required.

If you really feel this isn't working and you can't see it every working. It's best to do this sooner rather than later. It's doesn't sound like a happy home for you or him.

@WednesdayIsPurple he was 18kg at last weigh and he's very long with it, all legs. No exaggeration when I say he's twice the size of other adult cockers! The vet has a cocker and she said he's the biggest cocker she's ever seen.

Yes, I think FOMO is a big problem. I think he's waking if he hears anything and then struggles to settle back down. We've done lots of other training but I'll look into specific gun dog training today. Thank you for the recommendation.

@Unsoliciteddeckpic thank you for the advice and suggestions. His recall is really poor. We have a long training lead to practice with and are lucky to have lots of open spaces nearby where we can practice but it's still poor. I think that's the lack of bond. I desperately want it to work and all the helpful suggestions on here are giving me hope it can get better and we can develop that bond. I don't want him to live his life with people who don't love him.

@Itscoldouthere yes that's what ours does (wakes to anything). I tried white noise downstairs but if the neighbour went for a wee, or the neighbour's cat went into the garden, he would wake up and bark. So he's upstairs now and I think the noise and security of us keeps him quiet in his bed on the floor. It was about the age yours is now that we gave up and took him upstairs! We have to shut the door to the bedroom so he doesn't go back down and bark in the middle of the night!

Good luck - I hope you find a way to enjoy him. I do think overtiredness is playing a part as they can be menaces when they haven't had enough sleep!

Sounds like he needs more brain stimulation. Try scent work, most spaniels are really good at it and it's such a positive thing to do with them because your just harnessing their natural instincts, you don't have to "train" them to do it as such.
I would also give it until the 1yr mark. Our dog was a horrible teenager and I warn you now she had a relapse at about 2 yrs old.
If you do decide to remove, do it through the breeder or a charity...no one genuine wants your badly trained adolescent dog. He will just be passed from pillar to post.

[quote Ilookedatthesea]@Unsoliciteddeckpic thank you for the advice and suggestions. His recall is really poor. We have a long training lead to practice with and are lucky to have lots of open spaces nearby where we can practice but it's still poor. I think that's the lack of bond. I desperately want it to work and all the helpful suggestions on here are giving me hope it can get better and we can develop that bond. I don't want him to live his life with people who don't love him.[/quote]
For recall I always recommend the book 'total recall' by Pippa Mattison.

Its a really great book and training recall is a great way to build a bond. I genuinely can't recommend it enough.

I do alwaysvprefer to whistle train my dogs. But you can follow the book without whistle.

*rehome, not remove! Sounds sinister 😂

I also think you are being too hard on yourself. We have a good bond with ours but his recall was non existent at 8 months. Some of his behaviour is typical teenage behaviour and absolutely not you!

@unsoliciteddeckpic thank you I'll buy that today!

@WednesdayIsPurple thank you I appreciate that. It's hard not to feel like a failure but all the suggestions have given me hope that we can get there and it's not abnormal to struggle.

@TooManyAnimals94 😄 at remove. Thank you for your suggestions. I'm looking into specific gun dog training today. He is very smell orientated.

There are some big cocker spaniels out there - I don't think 18kg is so unusual - that's a little bigger than my beagle and I've walked cockers who are both bigger and smaller than him through my job. One was well over 20kg but others are just 12kg - like PP have said, they vary massively in size and looks.

The fact that he's still able to be so destructive when you turn your back says to me you're not managing his environment - if he's pulling things off the shelves then you need to stop leaving things on the shelves. If you have to leave him, even for a minute, he needs to go in his crate or in a safe space. Don't just leave him loose even if you're just going for a wee.

A lot of his behaviour suggests he's very overwhelmed and overstimulated too - 3x walks a day of five miles (each?)!is way way too much for a young dog. All lots of walking does is create a super fit dog who is impossible to tire out

Work his brain. Take a ball and make him hunt for it in the long grass. Take him swimming and get him to retrieve things from the water. Scatter his kibble in the garden and tell him to go find it. Feed him out of puzzle feeders, lick mats and kongs so he has to work for all his meals.

All the cockers I know are very high energy and normal walks do nothing to calm them - they need their brains working and they need a job when on walks or they'll go self employed

If you're finding being home with him all day hard going could you hire a dog walker to do a midday walk? It would give you a break from him and doing something new with other dogs should help burn off some energy!

Good luck!

@warmfluffytowels thank you - lots of really helpful suggestions. 5 miles total per day not each walk - usually through the week a morning and afternoon about 40 mins each. At the weekend we're often out for 1 long walk (beach, national trust etc)

A lady I know took the heartbreaking decision to rehome her Border terrier. He went to a game keeper in Scotland and is loving his life. It was the best decision for that dog.

You've had some excellent suggestions here OP and it's fantastic that you're so open to giving it a good go!

You could have a look OK the Facebook page Dog Training Advice and Support. They have guides for you to read that covers everything you can think of. They ask you to read the guides and if you still need help then you can post. It's not a discussion group, the admins are behaviourists and it's all force free. I think at the mo r t though from having been there a while you'd get much the same responses as here - redo the puppy proofing, scentwork, consistency. Kikopup on youtube is also good, she has some good videos on teaching loose leash walking.

Good luck!

Thank you @StMarysKettle last night was such a low point, completely exhausted. But the suggestions on here have made me feel really positive and motivated that there's more we can do and that we can get there.

Thank you @DinosaurDiana we definitely want to do the right thing for him.

Yes I think you've identified that the lack of bond will influence how successful you are with training. I like brain work to build bond - scent stuff, coordination & agility stuff, on lead, things out of the ordinary like balancing on walls, weaving through gates etc. Slow steady 1 on 1 communication.

If you do decide to rehome, why not consider offering him to the police? They will do an assessment to see if he has working potential. & will consider dogs who are quite mature - 2 yrs old plus...

But good luck OP - I can only imagine how hard it is knowing what a positive life affirming relationship dog ownership can be, but at the moment it is not what you are experiencing. Here's hoping he clicks soon x

as I said, before we were in this position I would have judged us too and no, I've never known a puppy who still isn't sleeping through the night at 8 months old.

Please don’t make it sound as if this could happen to any of us. We have just taken in a young dog from a feckless owner who sounds very much like you. I really can’t say what I think of that person and people like her as I will be deleted but again, just don’t make out this could happen to anyone with a comment like the one above. Not everyone is like you, some of us love any dog we take on and pick up the pieces left by others.
The previous owner of our dog already has a new pup. I despair.

Our puppy didn’t reliably sleep through till about a year, sounds woke her up, and sometimes still she just likes to give us a lick. She’s on our bed usually. Ours is a cockerpoo….

The first 3 months I thought she was sweet but I did think we’d made a mistake getting her as she was such a disruption.

Huge FOMO on her side.

They do need time alone, brain work, snuffle mats, treats hidden in toilet rolls, sniff work.

Put some time into lead work. And recall, Very high value treats…Stilton is good.

I think the start to calm down about 18 months…ours spends a lot of time asleep now, is ok on her own, sleeps through. She’s a pleasure now.

And it could happen to any of us.

Also,there’s a lot of fur baby nonsense around, think about how much of a bond yo7 really need. Your dog is fed, watered, exercised, well housed, well treated. it’s won the doggy lottery over millions of dogs.