PTS- how to know it's the right thing?

[heartbroken2021]

I'm heartbroken. I don't know what to do or how to move forward. It's been such a long road but also not enough time. I need to write down my thoughts as I can't make sense of things anymore. I'm going to be vague-ish because I know I'm going to get judgments and don't want anyone to connect me with him my other posts in the doghouse.

A few years ago we adopted a rescue puppy. Ddog is a small breed and seemed great, a little timid but overall great. When the ddog hit the teenage months, some warning signs appeared, ddog was difficult with other others suddenly. Ddog was very social but suddenly lunged and barked at other dogs. Ddogs separation anxiety began properly and in a few months it went from us having a social lovely puppy to a dog that couldn't be left at home and couldn't be taken out. So we found sitters and doggy daycares. We started with our first trainer, then 2nd then 3rd. Vet recommended medication, we followed strict training protocols. Medication didn't help, so we switched, we added more. We went to a special vet, more meds, more protocols and ddog just got worse and worse. Ddog was happiest in lockdown. Once lockdown was easing things got difficult again.

Finally he encountered a dog across a fence and bit me when I tried to remove him from the situation. We put this down to stress. Then an off leash dog came at us, ddog bit me various times so that I'd let go and he could attack the dog. We are working on muzzle training but really he can't be in the world at all.

It's been suggested we have him PTS and that feels so heavy and final! Ddog can't be rehomed due to bite history plus I know ddog will be adopted and returned endlessly. Ddog is lovely and cute but living with all their issues is very hard. I've done 2/3 solid years of training and we lived as if in lockdown waaaay before covid.

These are one of these times I hate being an adult and wish my mum would step in and make the hard decisions for me.

Being honest sometimes it is the most kindest thing you can do.for them
Agree rehomimg not an option

It is not liked you have not tried a lot of things

Living with a dog with issues is hard going... but whether it’s the right time to have him PTS is going to be a very personal decision that no-one else can really advise you on tbh.

I’m quite surprised though, that with a few trainers.... none of them ever raised redirection as a potential issue? It’s fairly common with reactive dogs to redirect their aggression on to the nearest person.

ddog bit me various times so that I'd let go and he could attack the dog. Like @tabulahrasa says, this sounds like redirected aggression. Dogs aren't capable of this level of forethought.

Have you consulted a qualified (a member of the APBC) behaviourist? They are best placed to advise you if PTS is the correct option.

I would stop all walks for now, to give him time to decompress and you time to muzzle train him. Did he encounter the dog through the fence in your garden? If he did (or there's any chance that he will), I would have him on a longline in the garden so that you can remove him from that situation from a safe distance (if recalling him away for a high value treat/toy doesn't work).

This is not a decision you should be making on your own.

Get a professional behaviourist in to help support you. They will honestly assess the situation and help in more ways than just the dogs behaviour.

Here is the amazing Ema talking about the difficulties in your situation well worth a listen and also info to a fab facebook group that again will support you

I am sorry you are having to deal with this incredibly difficult situation.

Thank you all for not flaming me. We have consulted specialist behaviour vets, I'm aware both bites were redirected aggression but it does mean it didn't hurt and wasn't scary for me.

I need to go back to our specialist vet, it's just all so hard to verbalise. He's a great dog 60% of the time but that % has been falling as his aggression has increased. I feel like we are living in a constant state of fragile egg shells with him.

@PollyRoulson

This is not a decision you should be making on your own.

Get a professional behaviourist in to help support you. They will honestly assess the situation and help in more ways than just the dogs behaviour.

Here is the amazing Ema talking about the difficulties in your situation well worth a listen and also info to a fab facebook group that again will support you

I am sorry you are having to deal with this incredibly difficult situation.

Thank you. I really appreciated her talk and I'm already in the Fb group she mentioned. BE had been batted around for over a year since we had our first chat with our behaviour vet. For the last year we've been doing what she described, following every lead to try and improve things, hitting dead ends or going as far we could with that plan.

I thought every dog could be rehabbed and maybe mine could be if he lived with a trainer 24hrs and never encountered another dog or was left alone ever. I don't know how to find that unicorn home because we are not it. We have a small baby, busy jobs and I'm still doing training 2-3 times a day, plus physio exercises all indoors since ddog is not allowed out.

But you are all right this isn't a decision we can make at alone. I'm going to reach out to our behaviour vet and see what she thinks of recent developments.

Dog sounds highly stressed and is probably not enjoying life much. I personally wouldn't keep such a reactive dog (done that once and when he passed at 18, I felt an enormous sense of relief that I didn't have to worry about him biting ever again!)

If medication and good training hasn't helped, it could be that dog has a medical issue (tumour, pain somewhere) but that's a rabbit hole of expense to explore.

They really don't have a concept of time and don't fear death. Unless there were very obvious signs pointing at something else that I could fix, I'd really consider pts as the kindest thing.

I also think it's a myth that every dog is fixable. It isn't realistic - some animals are just extremely reactive and a lot of the time, there's nothing that can be done. (I've heard it equated to mental illness in humans - sometimes, the brain just doesn't quite work in the right way but at least humans can verbalise their feelings/emotions)

“I'm aware both bites were redirected aggression but it does mean it didn't hurt and wasn't scary for me.“

Sorry no, I didn’t mean it like that at all - just it read a bit like you were thinking he’d put thought into it, so I was more thinking... eek, was it trainers or “trainers” that you’d seen.

I’ve been bitten when my dog redirected... well not just bitten, it was full on dog wrestling fairly regularly, it’s really not fun, so I didn’t mean it like - Ach it’s only a bit of redirecting, what are you bothered for, lol.

Something to add in - in case you’re not thinking that way, the times you’re struggling with his behaviour, he’s also massively stressed and unhappy.

A behavioural vet once said to me - to behave like that, either it’s something you’ve caused them to do and that wouldn’t be through normal kind treatment or there’s something wrong with the dog, physically or mentally.

And I kind of think sometimes it’s easy to forget when you’re in the midst of dealing with it, that what you have is a dog that’s not ok...

So working with him is the same as treating an illness or injury really and deciding to have him PTS is the same as going, this isn’t treatable enough to keep going and give him a good quality of life - and either of those is always a very personal choice, there isn’t a right or wrong.

@tabulahrasa sorry I didn't mean to snap at you. I feel really sad everytime I look at ddog. And the whole situation is sad. I get sad reading threads about excited new owners or dogs learning new tricks or new walks.

I need to reach out to our behavior vet again. I feel like every option and choice sucks. If ddog was a bigger breed our choices would much clearer but ddog is a small breed which we could "manage" for life but that's all his life would ever be. That feels like such a small life for a dog. He used to love grass and the park and chasing other dogs at dog parks. Now every noise upsets him. He's even started becoming reactive to bikes, cars and people.

I think we are planning one more run of meds + new trainer. And maybe we'll get somewhere. This should truly awful but I'd rather have ddog PTS rather than never know if he killed another dog or hurt a child.

What medication is he on?

I have a rescue dog who is not fixable but is manageable so I get what you mean. For 10 years I have managed his fog aggression, touch wood it will continue, and his raiding bins etc. I have accepted I can't cure those but they don't bring the level of stress you have.
He has bitten me a couple of times , kind of my fault , as I removed food he had stolen from him without thinking but again that's my mistake and in my control.
Your dog sounds much harder work and I think you are very brave to consider this and not send to a stressful life of kennels, rehoming and being returned.

@PollyRoulson

What medication is he on?

Over the past 2 years we've tried, fluoxetine, clomicalm, clonidine, gabapentin (refused to take) and trazodone. I really can't say if I think any of them have had an impact. Trazodone works ok when he would take it but it can't be given everyday.

@PollyRoulson plus all the natural stuff including CBD etc.

He sounds a really unhappy dog, OP. You don't know what's made him like this, and you can put your hand on your heart and say you've tried everything. I'd stop walking him straightaway as it sounds as if he's being completely overwhelmed by it. I've got a very nervy sprocker, and it's completely changed how we are able to walk.

I'd try finding a breed specific rescue or going back to the charity you homed him from to see if you can get some specific advice about rescue dogs?

Thanks @randomkey123 those options aren't available, we are no longer in the same country as the one we adopted him, plus the rescue we got him from turned out not to be the most ethical place. However I didn't know that when I adopted him.

Honestly if he's getting worse it points at a physical problem that's causing it. (and I know from my reactive dog that that's an endless pit of spending and often doesn't lead to any sort of concrete answers.)

You're not being unreasonable wanting a dog that you can enjoy. I'd never spend years trying to manage another reactive dog because it's such a stressful thing.

Thanks @QuestionableMouse . I'd never do this again either. As far as the vets we've consulted can figure there's nothing much wrong with him. Bar a sensitive stomach, he does have a weakness on the back leg due to luxating patella surgery plus some back pain but those are recent. Could be contributing to the recent increase of reactivity but not much to do, he's already doing physio weekly and daily exercises. It might get better but again it's all management rather than any linear progression.

Is he happy? Is this a happy, enjoyable life for him?

If not then could it improve, realistically? Is improvement achievable?

If not then a decision needs to be made as it isnt fair on any of you, living in limbo.

My vet felt my dog had some sort of brain tumour but didn't have a scanner to find out (I could have taken him to the vet hospital but honestly the stress wasn't worth it because it wouldn't have changed anything)

I cried buckets when he died but I also felt an real sense of relief that I didn't have to worry about him anymore.

Unless I have mixed up the names, you have a small baby OP? You need to do something. You cannot keep a dog with a repeat history of biting in a home with a baby. That’s no a reckless level of risk.

I have no idea what the scope for rehoming is - from what you’ve said it seems pretty limited - but you must get the dog away. From what you’ve said, him being happy 60% of the time is shockingly low to me and doesn’t sound like a good quality of life. And your quality of life, with that worry and having experienced bites, sounds pretty awful. I am nowhere near as sentimental as the majority view on here but if the dog is acting up (and presumably stressed/upset/unhappy) so frequently and, from your point of view, he is not enhancing your life either, then I don’t think PTS is an unthinkable option.

If I were you, I’d definitely do that.

What’s the best case scenario here? Months or years more of expensive tedious training, somewhat less miserable dog (even if it reduces by half, that’s still 20% unhappy - again a lot) and you living through all that stress and investment to get a bit of an improvement? Worst case - someone gets even more hurt than you already have.

I think you know you can’t keep him. And if that means PTS, then so be it.

Oh and just to say - you are entirely justified in making this decision, on your own, at this time. Of course consult some more if you want to but there is absolutely nothing wrong with you making this choice right now. You don’t need your mum, or yet another behaviourist or whoever. You don’t need permission from anyone. You’ve clearly thought deeply about this and tried a lot. You’re under no obligation to prolong everyone’s misery by yet another one last try.

@nothingcanhurtmewithmyeyesshut

Is he happy? Is this a happy, enjoyable life for him?

If not then could it improve, realistically? Is improvement achievable?

If not then a decision needs to be made as it isnt fair on any of you, living in limbo.

Yes he is happy, some of the time. Mostly only when he's in mine or my husbands arms or laps.

He's not having a having enjoyable life in general. He has moments of joy sure he loves his people so that comes easy for him. He even licks and wants pets from random people like the plumber and the deliver guy. I mean after he's barked for 20 mins at them but in general he's good with people. It's his other anxieties which are destroying his life.

I don't often walk him, but I try and take him out at times if the day if only to give him fresh air and a bit of a sniff. We live in a flat. Also for a dog that is so reactive to dogs he loves his harness, loves being taken out but sadly it's all undone at the sight of another dog.

Today he ran at a glass door to try and get a frenchie that was walking past. And he wouldn't stop barking and lunging until I took him back up the lift to another floor. Even then he kept going for another 5-10 mins even though he couldn't see the dog, couldn't even see the street that the dog was on.

What could realistically change is a question I've asked all the vets and behaviour vets and trainers. No one can say apparently. Since he won't respond to meds it's hard to predict if he'll get better.

Thanks @sycamore54321 , I know I don't need my mum and don't need to give any more goes but I do love him and if I could magically fix him tomorrow that would be my choice 1000%.

I do have a crawling baby at home, Ive not used this name before but my story with ddog is out here on Mumsnet in various names.

Ddog and baby don't spend any time together unless I'm supervising and there's another adult near by. Ddog is living most of the time at my parents but I go there every day since they are helping with childcare so I can work. The dog mostly ignores DS and if not gives him a sniff here and there. ddog is waaaaaay more interested in DS's toys than DS himself. We have baby gates and fenced off areas too. I'm not taking risks with DS and ddog.

Is it wrong that I want to keep posting here so I have somewhere to put down my feelings???? DH doesn't want to hear it at the moment, he's having a hard time but isn't "living" with the worry the same way I am. I'm the one who'll have to make the decision, find a vet since ours won't be supportive since "ddog doesn't bite at the surgery" - no he doesn't just shuts down totally. Yea helpful for her but he comes home and throws up afterwards.

I want to reach out to our old trainer just to talk about it but she's in a weird personal place and this feels like I'm dumping more crappy things on her.

At least here I'm semi anonymous and can be truthful. Brutally truthful. With myself above all.