PTS- how to know it's the right thing?

[heartbroken2021]

I'm heartbroken. I don't know what to do or how to move forward. It's been such a long road but also not enough time. I need to write down my thoughts as I can't make sense of things anymore. I'm going to be vague-ish because I know I'm going to get judgments and don't want anyone to connect me with him my other posts in the doghouse.

A few years ago we adopted a rescue puppy. Ddog is a small breed and seemed great, a little timid but overall great. When the ddog hit the teenage months, some warning signs appeared, ddog was difficult with other others suddenly. Ddog was very social but suddenly lunged and barked at other dogs. Ddogs separation anxiety began properly and in a few months it went from us having a social lovely puppy to a dog that couldn't be left at home and couldn't be taken out. So we found sitters and doggy daycares. We started with our first trainer, then 2nd then 3rd. Vet recommended medication, we followed strict training protocols. Medication didn't help, so we switched, we added more. We went to a special vet, more meds, more protocols and ddog just got worse and worse. Ddog was happiest in lockdown. Once lockdown was easing things got difficult again.

Finally he encountered a dog across a fence and bit me when I tried to remove him from the situation. We put this down to stress. Then an off leash dog came at us, ddog bit me various times so that I'd let go and he could attack the dog. We are working on muzzle training but really he can't be in the world at all.

It's been suggested we have him PTS and that feels so heavy and final! Ddog can't be rehomed due to bite history plus I know ddog will be adopted and returned endlessly. Ddog is lovely and cute but living with all their issues is very hard. I've done 2/3 solid years of training and we lived as if in lockdown waaaay before covid.

These are one of these times I hate being an adult and wish my mum would step in and make the hard decisions for me.

@heartbroken2021 we had our 3 year old dog put down due to similar issues. He was put down the day he bit our neighbour's DD. It wasn't a 'bad' bite, luckily, but it was unprovoked. I took him to the vet and she said that she thought he was likely to be unwell neurologically. I don't feel guilty. I feel sad, of course, even now, but it was the only responsible thing to do.

I hope you get the support you need to assess what the best thing to do is.

“They really don't have a concept of time and don't fear death. Unless there were very obvious signs pointing at something else that I could fix, I'd really consider pts as the kindest thing.”

As very wisely said upthread - you have obviously done your best. And I know you’d do it with such a heavy heart, and many tears, but I agree it is probably the kindest thing by now.

I have had a vet being quite judgemental when I had to make a similar decision (health related). They can’t know the day by day life that the dog is experiencing. You know best.

Thanks @Lougle did your dog exhibit any warning behaviours? Was it anxious or reactive in any way?

Your situation seems so clear cut to me. Ours feels so fuzzy and unclear.

I wish our pup had been adopted by a retiree with older grandkids who had a garden and never needed to be walked or left at home.

Thanks @FlemishHorse , I'm getting a lot of judgment even from people who know us and our dog.

@sycamore54321 I keep coming back to what you wrote "What’s the best case scenario here? Months or years more of expensive tedious training, somewhat less miserable dog (even if it reduces by half, that’s still 20% unhappy - again a lot) and you living through all that stress and investment to get a bit of an improvement? Worst case - someone gets even more hurt than you already have."

This is totally it!!! But I would still be putting down a "healthy" "alive" dog.

@heartbroken2021 he had been dog reactive for a while, but loved people, previously.

I don't think it's ever very clear cut. They are still wonderful pets in so many ways, but it is our responsibility to ensure the safety of people they come into contact with.

Could you find a retiree who has a garden and no grandchildren to adopt him?

@Lougle sorry I didn't mean to imply it was an easy decision. Only that I can see how that situation prompted those next steps. Sometimes I feel like I'm waiting for something clear cut to happen then I'll feel justified. At the moment I feel horrible.

I can understand that, but I think that waiting for something 'clear cut' is a very dangerous game and it could lead to a lifetime of regret.

heartbroken2021 Sorry to repeat myself but you need rl support this is a really traumatic situation and you should not be dealing with this alone.

Have you contacted a apbc behaviourist? They will have dealt with this before, they will be qualified to make an unemotional judgement and discuss all the options with you. You can ask them anything, they will have heard it before and they will have seen the situation before.

I so feel for you but do get support

Thanks @PollyRoulson I'm not in the U.K. but I have reached out to our old behaviour vet and also another behaviour vets that was recommended to me where I'm living now.

I'm taking ddog to our normal vet this afternoon as it seems like he's developed an ear infection too. He's just a poorly dog.

[quote heartbroken2021]@Lougle sorry I didn't mean to imply it was an easy decision. Only that I can see how that situation prompted those next steps. Sometimes I feel like I'm waiting for something clear cut to happen then I'll feel justified. At the moment I feel horrible. [/quote]
The thing is, that I could have brushed it off. The girl came into our house. He might have been startled, except he wasn't, because he'd already approached her for a fuss and she'd stroked him. It wasn't a bad bite. Well that was because she had a full length t-shirt and a hoodie on. It still broke the skin and left bruising. I was so tempted to think 'oh we'll just do x,y,z...' but I knew that if he bit one of our children badly, or someone's face, or the delivery man, it would be my fault, because I knew it was a very real possibility beforehand.

@heartbroken2021

Thanks *@FlemishHorse* , I'm getting a lot of judgment even from people who know us and our dog.

@sycamore54321 I keep coming back to what you wrote "What’s the best case scenario here? Months or years more of expensive tedious training, somewhat less miserable dog (even if it reduces by half, that’s still 20% unhappy - again a lot) and you living through all that stress and investment to get a bit of an improvement? Worst case - someone gets even more hurt than you already have."

This is totally it!!! But I would still be putting down a "healthy" "alive" dog.

He's not a healthy dog though, because if he was, he wouldn't be reacting like this.

Sorry if that's too blunt but whether it's a physical issue that just hasn't been diagnosed or the canine version of mental health issues he's not healthy.

I'm sorry ❤️

Your dog needs put to sleep. Stop torturing yourself and do what needs to be done. You could spend weeks agonising over this and ultimately end up doing the inevitable. This is a miserable existence for you and the dog. Do the brave thing and do it soon.

What exactly is the training

I have watched many programmes about reactive dogs and how they have been turned round. I have also seen a dog trainer who really shouldn’t be in employment and have seen the dog having to be pts because their methods don’t work.

Just a suggestion, but you could try contacting Dogs4Rescue. They are an amazing, no kennel, rescue and rehabilitation charity, who specialise in reactive dogs. They’ve taken on some really difficult cases and if they can’t rehabilitate and rehome, they have a home at the rescue for life. It might be worth a phonecall to see if they can help or maybe suggest someone else who can.

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@PermanentlyDizzy

Just a suggestion, but you could try contacting Dogs4Rescue. They are an amazing, no kennel, rescue and rehabilitation charity, who specialise in reactive dogs. They’ve taken on some really difficult cases and if they can’t rehabilitate and rehome, they have a home at the rescue for life. It might be worth a phonecall to see if they can help or maybe suggest someone else who can.

Facebook page

Website

OP is not in the UK.

Thanks @FlemishHorse

@PermanentlyDizzy while that rescue looks interesting, my dog would need to be segregated from other dogs for life, there would be no cage free, free range living in the way they describe in their website. That's not appropriate for all dogs, mine would get themselves killed by picking a dog fight with the biggest dog there. Or he'd live in a kennel alone for the rest of his life, that's not a choice I would make for him as that would make him so anxious he'd likely hurt himself constantly. Sorry but I no longer believe we can save all dogs.

@Bythemillpond we've been practicing emotional counter conditioning however ddog really doesn't have a "safe" distance that he can look at a dog and not react. Which is why we tried so many meds over the years to see if we can reduce the distance and make progress with the emotional support and re-education. He's not been flooded, his trainers have all been force free +training only all highly accredited. We do lots of impulse control games, mat work, calming exercises. I've been slightly focussed on getting him better for such a long time.

@heartbroken2021, they are used to handling dogs with dog-to-dog reactivity. Each dog is assessed and housed according to it’s needs and some are fostered by experienced fosterers during rehabilitation. They have had dogs come in who have been so stressed/overwhelmed in suburban/domestic situations that they are reactive to people and dogs, who can slowly be successfully integrated into the kennel free pack with no problems. They’re very experienced and will only get involved if they think they can help. They do acknowledge they can’t help every dog. Just thought it might be worth a conversation with them.

I do understand. Years ago I had a very large breed rescue who was fear aggressive to people and dogs. After trying highly qualified, well respected behaviourists and doing everything possible to try and rehabilitate him etc for years, we basically decided to stop, turned our whole lives upside down to accommodate his needs and allowed him to live out his days without having to confront the things that he couldn’t cope with. At the end of the day, he just wasn’t fixable and we had to accept that. It wasn’t fair on him to keep trying. We lost him at a young age to cancer, which I have always felt was most likely due to the constant, highly stressed state he spend his youngest years in, but he was happy, safe and content and had a good life with us and we had everything in place to make sure he was never a problem to anyone else.

It’s not something most people would be able to manage on a day to day, ongoing basis and I appreciate that we were extremely fortunate to have been able to do it. If we took on the same dog these days, where we live now and having dcs, including two with SNs, we would not be able to accommodate his needs to keep him (and everyone else) safe and would be in the same position as you. It literally takes over your life. I really feel for you, you are obviously very committed to and work very hard with him. I hope you are able to find a solution.

I had to come back to this thread. I could have started another but didn't want to explain the history again. Ddog is still with us. I saw our original behaviourist and another who is local to us. Local one doesn't want to try meds, she's not a believer, different approaches and all that. We've been struggling giving his "normal" monthly heartworm and parasites meds so less medication is ok by me.

We re started separation anxiety training but it's really not going well. I continue to feel stuck. I love him, but no one is truly happy. I feel like a murderer for even thinking of PTS but he's miserable as are we.

I am curious as to why he was better in lockdown, which you said in your fist post.
Many years ago I had a dog put down after it bit 2 people. I had rehomed it privately and the poor thing was in a terrible state when I got him (this was over 40 years ago). As his health improved his temperament deteriorated. He was a total liability. I discovered later that he had bitten the previous owners children, so in effect, I was doing their dirty work for them by having him pts. If your dog is as bad as you say please don't pass him on. There are fates worse than death and you would have no control over any eventual outcome.

@Brownlongearedbat during the early months of lockdown in March 2020, he was better because suddenly he was with me and my husband all the time which made him happy. No more daycare, no more sitter just his two people ALL day. But of course everyone else's dogs were also there all the time, so his reactive got worse on a almost daily basis

I need this thread as a diary. My family are tired of my circular thoughts.

You sound like you really care about your dog and it's such a difficult situation. This is probably not very helpful, but could you ask any of the behaviourists whether they know any trainers who would consider adopting him? Like you say, the only home he could go to would be to a trainer

Thanks @XelaM . I love ddog dearly. If I thought there was a trainer out there who could help him I would pay anything. We have already discussed rehoming, however due to the bites, our behaviourist and vets said it's not a good idea. No one knows someone who wants a dog they can't take out nor leave at home safely.

That's such an awful situation. What does he do when you leave him on his own?