Breeder not sure about Son2

[aloneinthenight]

I don't know how normal this is and what to do.

I really want a puppy. Our eldest son died last year and I think a dog would be a great help.

Although DH isn't really a dog person, he is on board. Son2 was initially keen but now ambivalent.

I've found a breeder who is very good and super responsible. She lives 40 minutes away from us and expects weekly visits for 8 weeks (from when puppies are 4 weeks old to when she lets them go at 12 weeks).

Son2 doesn't like going. It takes up all his Sunday morning when he'd rather be with his mates, he doesn't like their house (they have a lot of dogs) and they are quite intense.

They want to see him play with the dog, tell the dog off, learn how to handle him.

Today, on visit 4 (!) they have said they are not sure Son2 wants a dog enough and they may not let us take it.

He is obviously struggling since his brother died. Son1 was very exuberant and he is much more reserved, he is also wary around new people and doesn't like to get things wrong.

I think a dog will be good for him but in much more of a 'slow burn' way and in his own time.

I'm not sure what to do. He's now feeling under even more pressure than before. They want us to visit twice a week to be sure he is keen, which seems counter productive.

Help!

@aloneinthenight

I have spoken to her. I have told her that he wants the dog but that he finds the visits very stressful. I said that he is a grieving little boy who spent many months of weekends on motorway car journeys to visit his brother and also that the long chats about safety and potential illnesss/problems are very difficult for him to hear.

Also he has spent a year in lockdown meeting no new people and visiting no new houses so this is an overwhelming experience. And that her negative comments reinforce his fear that something may be taken away from him.

I said that I know him best and I would not introduce a puppy into the house if I absolutely didn't think it was the best thing for us all.

I have agreed to take him on Friday after school but said I won't be increasing visits and I would like her to take a back seat during visits.

I'm OK with the 12 weeks and happy with the socialisation aspect but if she doesn't confirm that the dog is definitely ours on Friday I shall be asking for my deposit back.

Well done OP 👏

I think you have done the correct thing, I'm glad that she wants to make sure they go to good homes but she is definitely being OTT. Hopefully she has a think about things and gives you the news you want on Friday

Really, really well done OP

OP just a different take which you are 100% free to ignore...
A puppy is a big responsibility and cockers are quite lively dogs; sounds as if you are quite far on in the process, but should this not work out, have a think about a middle aged retired greyhound.
Where I'm coming from is that they are typically affectionate, low energy dogs, so can be less overwhelming and demanding than a puppy, and - particularly in light of your heartbreaking loss - many are extremely fond of cuddling quietly for long periods of time. They are experts at sitting patiently while having their fur wept into.

And when the weather is appalling and everyone is knackered from work and school, they are very amenable to being bargained down to two quick whizzes round the block a day with no particular ill effects.

Just a thought. Best of luck whatever the outcome.

@InteriorDesignHell

"They are experts at sitting patiently while having their fur wept into." Very much here for this!

[quote aloneinthenight]@InteriorDesignHell

"They are experts at sitting patiently while having their fur wept into." Very much here for this![/quote]
That’s the loveliest thing I’ve read. I hope all goes well for you OP and I am so sorry about your son. X

What’s her rationale for not letting the pups go until 12 weeks?

I can think of lots of downsides but no advantages - but presumably she has given a reason?

What was her response to you OP? Fo you think she accepted what you were saying to her?

I think she got it - she was a bit defensive but I made myself clear!

She hasn't really said why 12 weeks is better, just that it is. I suppose I thought it made sense as they'd be slightly more toilet trained and able to go through the night.

Can you tell me what the disadvantages are? The slight issue is that we will be on holiday for two weeks just before we pick it up so couldn't take it earlier anyway.

I’m sorry about your eldest son.

I wonder if the breeder has another buyer lined up so is deliberately being difficult to try to get to pull out. Considering how good dogs are as therapy for all sorts of things, including for children with ASD who wouldn’t be able to cope with what the breeder is wanting, I’m also voting that she is being really unreasonable.

The slight issue is that we will be on holiday for two weeks just before we pick it up so couldn't take it earlier anyway. Does the breeder know you won’t be able to make your twice a week visits during that time?

Sorry for your loss OP.
The breeder sounds completely OTT.
I hope you get it resolved

She hasn't really said why 12 weeks is better, just that it is. I suppose I thought it made sense as they'd be slightly more toilet trained and able to go through the night.

They won't be more toilet trained - a family training one puppy is massively easier than one or 2 individuals training an entire litter who are being distracted constantly by their siblings. But mainly you have a small socialisation window for the pup in the lifestyle you have and youve missed half of it by 12 weeks. Again she's going to struggle to introduce an entire litter to all the sights and sounds

There is a window from 8-16 weeks. This window is when your dog should positively experience everything it will likely encounter in its life with you - so if you travel by bus / train etc then a few positive journeys, expose them to old people, buggies, toddlers, traffic, bicycles whizzing past, shops, the vet, pub gardens etc etc. You would also expose them to loud and unexpected noises - thunder, balloon pop, fireworks and so on.

It is also useful socialisation time with a range of dogs - kept in the litter that long they will keep playing rough and tumble with their littermates and that can have an impact.

After 16 weeks, puppies can become very fearful of things they haven't experienced before. It can be really hard to reverse this. So unless the breeder is spending those weeks between 8-12 weeks taking your puppy on the bus and playing them fireworks CDs, you've lost 4 weeks. And even if she is, if her lifestyle and household don't match yours (eg she drives everywhere and you always get the train) then you've got a load of catching up to do.

I'm so sorry for your loss. I hope the puppy, or any future dog, brings you some comfort and joy.

This checklist is a guide to what your puppy should be socialised to before 16 weeks of age: drsophiayin.com/app/uploads/2015/12/Socialization_Checklist.pdf

Have you asked the breeder how they are socialising the puppies?

When socialising a puppy, you have to go at the puppy's pace so that it has positive experiences of the things that you are socialising it to. In order to properly socialise the entire litter, the breeder would need to socialise each puppy separately, taking into account their individual temperaments, e.g., some puppies will be more nervous than others so will need to be socialised more carefully to avoid overwhelming them.

Between the age of eight and ten weeks puppies often experience what is known as a fear period. Any negative experiences that occur during this period can make a lasting impression for the rest of the dog’s life e.g., being told off by visitors during this fear period could make the dog wary of visitors for the rest of its life.

Does the breeder have children or does your puppy only see your DS and the children that are adopting its siblings? Puppies ideally need to have positive associations of children whilst also learning to be calm around them. If your puppy learns to associate children with playing then there’s a risk that it will grow up to be one of those dogs that runs up to children in the park.

Utterly Bonkers. I’ve never heard of this. Meeting pup twice before collection is more normal. Weekly is madness.

So is 12 weeks. She sounds batshit.

That's really helpful, thank you. I'm going to ask her about that on one of my 'many' visits.

She sounds absolutely barmy to me , there is no way she will be house training an entire litter of spaniels so if anything you will be 4 weeks behind with house training as well as everything else . Have you spoken to any previous puppy purchasers from this breeder as I wonder how much she tries to ‘interfere’ once the pups have left her care .

I've paid a deposit now so don't really want to walk away.

I'd heard so many horror stories of irresponsible breeders that this one seemed great. She does really love her dogs!

I fear she might be quite 'involved' after we've taken him though - although initially that seemed a really good thing. She offered to have him back for holidays etc.

What do I do?

I hadn't really thought about the socialisation aspect and assumed being with their mother for longer would be better.

Does your son actually want to go again? I’d be terrified if I was him, thinking if I put one foot wrong I wouldn’t be allowed the puppy

Personally I wouldn’t touch this woman’s pups with a very long pole .

@Floralnomad but presumably I will lose my deposit.

Son2 is happy to go back, now I've clarified that he is not at fault at all and she is just a bit strange.

@DrinkingWishingSmokingHoping was everything alright with your pup in the end?

How old when you got it?

I’d imagine she might want to have follow ups on the pup.

It’s hard because there are so many dodgy breeders. She’s obviously very caring, but too involved and doesn’t want to let go. Having a pup at 12 weeks is interfering with its new life.

Mum will have stopped feeding before 8 weeks. So certainly wouldn’t want to be bothered by growing pups at 12 weeks. I can’t see she will potty train them for you and it’s an ongoing thing. You need to decide how you want to train the pup.

I’d be wanting some distance between me and the breeder TBH.

@tabulahrasa

It’s pretty normal for a breeder to want to meet everyone... once or twice, once a week is ludicrous.

Why 12 weeks btw? Is it a tiny breed?

Is it? What if you're a couple with a baby, or expecting? Not like they'll be able to tell how the child will be with the dog in the future! Seems extreme.