Breeder not sure about Son2

[aloneinthenight]

I don't know how normal this is and what to do.

I really want a puppy. Our eldest son died last year and I think a dog would be a great help.

Although DH isn't really a dog person, he is on board. Son2 was initially keen but now ambivalent.

I've found a breeder who is very good and super responsible. She lives 40 minutes away from us and expects weekly visits for 8 weeks (from when puppies are 4 weeks old to when she lets them go at 12 weeks).

Son2 doesn't like going. It takes up all his Sunday morning when he'd rather be with his mates, he doesn't like their house (they have a lot of dogs) and they are quite intense.

They want to see him play with the dog, tell the dog off, learn how to handle him.

Today, on visit 4 (!) they have said they are not sure Son2 wants a dog enough and they may not let us take it.

He is obviously struggling since his brother died. Son1 was very exuberant and he is much more reserved, he is also wary around new people and doesn't like to get things wrong.

I think a dog will be good for him but in much more of a 'slow burn' way and in his own time.

I'm not sure what to do. He's now feeling under even more pressure than before. They want us to visit twice a week to be sure he is keen, which seems counter productive.

Help!

Also why is she insisting on 12 weeks? That's too old

Move on. There are other puppies out there.
Put your son first - how is he going to feel if he jumps through all the hoops, and then she decides not to go through with the sale after all? After so many visits your son with either be fed up of the whole thing (like any normal teenager), or be desperately in love with it and have to mourn it's loss when he doesn't get to keep it, iyswim.

Far too intense and batshit crazy.

12 weeks??? That sounds very odd to me. And of course she is totally batshit. There is due diligence and there is megalomanic control.

Are you maybe being kept in reserve, with the idea that she can tell you it was not meant to be if her dog doesn't produce as many pups as she is hoping?? If they are dodgy and have an uncertain number of puppies coming they will have a ranking list.

They want to see him play with the dog, tell the dog off, learn how to handle him.

What methods exactly does the breeder think you should be using to tell the puppy off?

Very very unusual to be keeping a cocker with mum until 12 weeks by the way.

Omg tell her to go to hell! Puppies are a bit less in demand at the moment. Choose a different breeder. None of this is normal.

And you are amazing for being do strong and so very sorry for your horrible loss.

Why 12 weeks? That would really put me off. If your son is reluctant that is important bonding time never mind a small socialisation window.
She is ridiculous. Go elsewhere.

These dog breeder threads are absolutely batshit! Never have I ever been through such measures to buy a puppy. Go elsewhere for your son's sake.

Thank you. My husband will kill me if I back out now! He's gone from never wanting a dog to being quite keen and has spent hours driving us there

We have all been through such a lot.

The thought that we could bond with a puppy and then they could withdraw him at the last minute would be incredibly distressing.

I thought my breeder was strict with the interview process but I would run from this one.

Mine wanted to make sure my small child wouldn’t be terrified of a giant dog but also took our history of having large breeds into account and was happy to look at photos etc, mainly as I didn’t want to make DC sit in the car for 4 hours each way to look at a puppy.

Once should be more than enough!!

I wouldn’t want a puppy from these people, they sounds nuts. Week 8-12 is such an Important time for the puppy to be bonding with you.

@aloneinthenight sounds very much like the breeder we got our cocker from, and if so yes - totally bonkers. Is she in Essex, by any chance?

That sounds excessive, one of those absolutely tunnel vision dog nuts people, who cannot spare an ounce of compassion for a human child who has been bereaved. I’d say no to the stepped up demand.

@aloneinthenight, will the breeder let you take the puppy at 8 weeks? If they won't, do you know what they are doing to socialise the puppies? Are they following a checklist like this: drsophiayin.com/app/uploads/2015/12/Socialization_Checklist.pdf

If you get the puppy at 12 weeks you will only have a very short period to socialise the puppy and there's always the chance that we could be in another lockdown by then.

There is some evidence puppies do better if they stay with mum until 12 weeks. Which makes the regular visits from the family in the socialisation window make sense.

The demand for performative excitement is batshit; but the 12 weeks with regular visits wouldn’t necessarily make me run.

So very sorry for your loss op.

I must say though it's encouraging to hear of a breeder being so keen to ensure their pups go to good homes rather than seeing them as a source of income - or a product - as a pp said.

Not sure how you can resolve this if ds2 genuinely isn't interested in the puppy? Is his behaviour caused by resentment because he'd rather see his friends? If so is there any chance of you visiting at a different time when he doesn't feel like he's missing out?

My husband will kill me if I back out now! He's gone from never wanting a dog to being quite keen and has spent hours driving us there

But she could back out at any moment, anyway and sounds like she might.

I have had cockers for 20 years. From puppies, rescued and fostered. I really hope she is working on all these dogs, with bite inhibition, outdoor toilet training and come with at least 1 set of injections. If not both.

I fostered 3, for a rescue, at 5-6 weeks after the breeder dumped them. If she is insisting on keeping them until 12 (I have never known a breeder keep past 10) she really needs to be working on all the things you would be.

Bite inhibition is far more difficult to work on while they are still with their litter mates. And at 12 weeks, this could makebit a bit more difficult as they have had an extra 4 weeks of this behaviour being ok. Its not impossible, but more difficult. Cockers are fairly bad for it and nicknamed cockerdiles.

Honestly, I suspect she has another buyer in mind for the puppy, or is planning on keeping it. I have seen this happen so much in the last year, breeders giving ridiculous reasons that the puppy isn't going to their new home.

Can I ask what type of cocker is it and what sort of paperwork the dog is coming with?

@AvantGardening

There is some evidence puppies do better if they stay with mum until 12 weeks. Which makes the regular visits from the family in the socialisation window make sense.

The demand for performative excitement is batshit; but the 12 weeks with regular visits wouldn’t necessarily make me run.

This basically sums up how I feel too.

12 weeks and weekly visits would not be an issue for me - from a breeder I was 100% comfortable with otherwise. i.e. one following a clear and well thought out socialisation and training plan with all the dogs.

Demanding "performative excitement" [great phrase!] from a 12 year old grieving boy would be right out. As would expecting him to tell a puppy off.

I think I'd be sending a simple message back: If you are having doubts about whether or not you want to sell a dog to us, I would appreciate a quick and final decision this week.

Ultimately though, the loss of the desposit is still worth it, if it means avoiding the wrong dog for you. And if she reallty is batshit and the primary influence on your future dog's life right now, it may well end up being a saving grace.

They say they need to be sure the whole family will take responsibility!
Why? My DS was so excited to get a dog, but surprise surprise (not) is not much invested at all. Doggy loves him and she gets daily cuddles from him, but the attachment is with me and my OH who do everything for her. She has tons of attention from us, she doesn't require my son to do more than what he does.

It's strange that a breeder would make this a requirement.

Weekly visits sounds ludicrous nevermind twice weekly. How many in the litter? My pup is one of 9, imagine having to arrange visits with 9 familys every week.

How did you find this breeder, what was her reason for keeping puppies until 12 weeks?

The demand and prices for puppies is crazy at the moment.
Do you think she might have had a better offer and is looking for an excuse to get out of your arrangement?
I’m all for breeders thoroughly checking people out but she’s over the top, my DD was dog mad when we got ours and technically he is her dog but me and DH knew we would be primarily responsible for him. A breeder expecting a 12 year old to take on that role is ridiculous.

Also, I am very sorry about your son x

So many alarm bells ringing for me with this breeder

Not letting the puppy go until 12 weeks - big issue. There is no good reason to keep them much beyond 8 weeks. They won’t be feeding from mum at this point, they need to start bonding with you, they need to be socialised beyond their pack

Weekly visits from 4 weeks - assuming 8 ish pups in the litter, that’s more than 1 strange family a day coming to upset the mum. It’s one thing to get pups used to be handled, it’s another thing to bring entire families of strangers in to bother the mum

Wanting to see a child discipline a going puppy - doesn’t need explaining

I would be asking for the deposit back and finding a better, less batshit breeder for your puppy

I like breeders who properly vet their customers, but this person is taking it to extreme.

This! Also it's rarely in the best interests for a puppy (or the bitch) to not leave its mum til 12 weeks old. That's a good chunk of its socialisation window. Is the breeder going to take every puppy out and about to see sights and sounds. Are they going to toilet train, and general training of an entire litter of pups? Poor mum will be run ragged with a full litter of 12 week old spaniels.

The weekly visits are a lot to expect and I'm not surprised ds doesn't want to waste a day each weekend with it. Can you find another breeder. This is sounds like she's going to be hard work in other ways too. Probably send you home with a ridiculous contract that gives her the right to take pup back etc

Demanding "performative excitement" [great phrase!] from a 12 year old grieving boy would be right out. As would expecting him to tell a puppy off.

Also this. Having a breeder who beloved visiting children should be ' telling a puppy off' socialising and training several pups is very worrying. Puppies of that age don't need - and shouldn't be - told off by anyone except their mum. I'd be concerned about how that puppy will be treated at such a crucial time!

*believes not beloved

I have spoken to her. I have told her that he wants the dog but that he finds the visits very stressful. I said that he is a grieving little boy who spent many months of weekends on motorway car journeys to visit his brother and also that the long chats about safety and potential illnesss/problems are very difficult for him to hear.

Also he has spent a year in lockdown meeting no new people and visiting no new houses so this is an overwhelming experience. And that her negative comments reinforce his fear that something may be taken away from him.

I said that I know him best and I would not introduce a puppy into the house if I absolutely didn't think it was the best thing for us all.

I have agreed to take him on Friday after school but said I won't be increasing visits and I would like her to take a back seat during visits.

I'm OK with the 12 weeks and happy with the socialisation aspect but if she doesn't confirm that the dog is definitely ours on Friday I shall be asking for my deposit back.