Do you say NO to your dogs?

[hopingtobehappiness]

My parents have a new puppy and the last time they had a young dog was 25 years ago, back then I remember going with my Dad to dog training classes. They used the shake the tin of coins to stop unwanted behaviour, although mostly it was praise for good behaviour, treats, pats and talking it that high pitched voices only used for babies/ puppies. I remember doing to awards with their two labs.

They have told me they can't tell the new puppy No or use a sound to prevent unwanted behaviour. I personally use ahaha noise that I say with my dog occasionally and I will also say NO or STOP firmly also to the kids too. They say this is aversion training and I disagree. To me the aversion training is spraying water, air horn zapping / citrus collars ( also very popular back in the day.) What do you think and do?

Mine know NO as a quick response if they're sniffing at someone's dinner/going near the cooker when I open it etc.
Also: STOP, DOWN, UP, OFF, BED, IN, OUT, SIT, STAY, QUIET, and COME. Those are the basics sheesh there's a few bits off 'bloody well pack that in!!' occasionally but they seem to understand that too

If I was a dog chewing the sofa and my owner called me and rewarded me I'd think they were rewarding me chewing their sofa. There certainly wouldn't be anything there to suggest I shouldn't chew the sofa again once we'd finished whatever diversionary activity they did with me after the treat.
My child was able to understand tone of voice before he could speak and a dog will understand tone of voice. Neither is harmed by being told no in a firm voice and the idea that the dog is totally stressed out by this is nonsense. If you're saying it over and over and over then it obviously isn't working with the dog or the child and you need to do something else - otherwise it's fine.
Saying no to a dog when it is lying down minding it's own business to prove a point is what's cruel if you ask me - why would you do that?

They’re not doing nothing... they’re lying down.

Lying down relaxing (which is what PP stated) is doing nothing. If you were lying down on your bed and someone asked you what you were doing you would say “I’m not doing anything”

@Tal45

If I was a dog chewing the sofa and my owner called me and rewarded me I'd think they were rewarding me chewing their sofa. There certainly wouldn't be anything there to suggest I shouldn't chew the sofa again once we'd finished whatever diversionary activity they did with me after the treat. My child was able to understand tone of voice before he could speak and a dog will understand tone of voice. Neither is harmed by being told no in a firm voice and the idea that the dog is totally stressed out by this is nonsense. If you're saying it over and over and over then it obviously isn't working with the dog or the child and you need to do something else - otherwise it's fine. Saying no to a dog when it is lying down minding it's own business to prove a point is what's cruel if you ask me - why would you do that?

I agree with this. Saying no to my dog lying down would just confuse him immensely as 'no' is a command to stop and he isn't doing anything. Lying down isnt doing anything.. weird post.

@Tal45

If I was a dog chewing the sofa and my owner called me and rewarded me I'd think they were rewarding me chewing their sofa. There certainly wouldn't be anything there to suggest I shouldn't chew the sofa again once we'd finished whatever diversionary activity they did with me after the treat. My child was able to understand tone of voice before he could speak and a dog will understand tone of voice. Neither is harmed by being told no in a firm voice and the idea that the dog is totally stressed out by this is nonsense. If you're saying it over and over and over then it obviously isn't working with the dog or the child and you need to do something else - otherwise it's fine. Saying no to a dog when it is lying down minding it's own business to prove a point is what's cruel if you ask me - why would you do that?

Spot on

I use no for my dog and it works fine. He's old and very well behaved now so it doesn't get used often anymore but as a puppy / during training a stern 'No' stopped him misbehaving then we would give him something to do (task / trick) as a distraction and reward him once that was done.

I've never heard that the word no could do any sort of damage to a dog to be honest.

When did owning a dog become such a minefield of psychological juggling. We grew up with dogs, all were healthy, well behaved, happy, unstressed and didn't need therapy because they were told No every now and again.

“I agree with this. Saying no to my dog lying down would just confuse him immensely as 'no' is a command to stop and he isn't doing anything. Lying down isnt doing anything.. weird post.“

No can be a command to stop... but then the dog understands it as stop, not the word no in other contexts, which was the point people were trying to make.

That it can be a confusing command because if you use it in another context where stop doesn’t make sense then it’s useless.

I don’t use ‘no’ for my dogs, I use a positive interrupter and train for the behaviours I want. Within that I train them to understand when I want them to stop what they’re doing and focus on me for instructions, ie things like ‘leave’ ‘drop’ ‘instant down/emergency stop’.

For me, it’s not the word ‘no’ itself that’s a problem, it’s the way it’s used and the fact that it’s used so often in daily life that it can be confusing for some dogs. The temptation can be too great to use it in an angry way as well. Also a lot of dogs learn to tune it out if it’s used constantly for everything, especially if they just hear ‘no’ constantly and never get rewarded for stopping what they are doing in response.

The positive interrupter is one of the first things I teach my pups, as it then leads nicely into safety related training ie leave, drop, come and watch-me. Sit/down/stand etc will all come, but for me personally, the aforementioned early training eliminates the need for me to be constantly saying no to them anyway. The amount of people I see following their puppies around in the park yelling ‘no’ ‘stop it’ is unreal and 9 times out of 10 the pup is completely ignoring them anyway.

My dog understands a lot of words. She likes to sit at the end of the sofa near the window, but er place is at the other end of the sofa. If I stand over her and say to her "excuse me, Skye, would you mind moving down to the other end" she obviously doesn't understand the words but she knows what I'm asking. She certainly understands "No" an to her it means to stop whatever it is she is doing.
The longer you have a dog an almost telepathic communication develops, for example she looks to me for approval about some things, and if i don't give it she stops. Dogs usually want to please you and they are quite clever at working out how to do that.

@tabulahrasa

“I agree with this. Saying no to my dog lying down would just confuse him immensely as 'no' is a command to stop and he isn't doing anything. Lying down isnt doing anything.. weird post.“

No can be a command to stop... but then the dog understands it as stop, not the word no in other contexts, which was the point people were trying to make.

That it can be a confusing command because if you use it in another context where stop doesn’t make sense then it’s useless.

Why would 'no' mean anything other than stop? I have never said the word stop to my dog.

Many of you state that you say NO to stop your dog doing something.

So the example I gave of saying NO to them in a down proves my point that NO does not stop them doing something it should stop them lying down. But whatever by asking No in a situation has confused you so imagine what the dog is thinking.

If they are about to eat some food note the about. You say NO what does that mean to the dog who is just standing there?

Your dog does not understand NO.

It is hard for a human to understand just the word NO.

You are walking towards me I shout NO, do you stop walking towards me, do you ask me what I meant. What I actually want you to do is to put your cup of coffee down.

SO back to the dog about to eat the food on the floor you say NO the dog grabs the food but moves back out of the room - was he wrong? how was he to know NO meant not eat the food, or get out of the room or stop standing there,maybe he had just licked his lips in anticpiation of the food does No mean stop licking his lips?

No is an ambiguous/lazy cue and there are way better cues to teach a dog

@PollyRoulson

Many of you state that you say NO to stop your dog doing something.

So the example I gave of saying NO to them in a down proves my point that NO does not stop them doing something it should stop them lying down. But whatever by asking No in a situation has confused you so imagine what the dog is thinking.

If they are about to eat some food note the about. You say NO what does that mean to the dog who is just standing there?

Your dog does not understand NO.

It is hard for a human to understand just the word NO.

You are walking towards me I shout NO, do you stop walking towards me, do you ask me what I meant. What I actually want you to do is to put your cup of coffee down.

SO back to the dog about to eat the food on the floor you say NO the dog grabs the food but moves back out of the room - was he wrong? how was he to know NO meant not eat the food, or get out of the room or stop standing there,maybe he had just licked his lips in anticpiation of the food does No mean stop licking his lips?

No is an ambiguous/lazy cue and there are way better cues to teach a dog

I've just posted a massive response to this and mn lost it.. basically I disagree with you.

What is there is disagree with ?

These “diversion” advocates - do you do the same with your dcs?

Penelope is about to touch something hot. Do you say, “NO” or do you say, “Penelope come over here and do some Lego” ? By which time Penelope is scalded.

Obviously (some) dogs are not as able to understand cause and effect as well as humans, but the immediate aim is the same: danger must be averted fast.

Another problem with diversion is “drop it” or “leave!” which are essential commands. If my dog was investigating an interesting-looking discarded sandwich/dead squirrel it was important to get him to abandon it straightaway, not get into a load of waffle about coming to play with a ball by which time the dog has wolfed down the offending object.

“Why would 'no' mean anything other than stop? I have never said the word stop to my dog.”

Because no doesn’t actually mean just stop, so people use it to mean, drop, leave, shut up and various other things.

If you and your dog both have a shared understanding of what you mean by the word no... then fine.

But the reason it’s not great when you’re training is that it can mean all those different things - and look how many people have mentioned tone of voice, that’s often what people are actually using rather than their dog understanding what no means.

The whole thing. I say "no" when my dog barks. He stops. "No" when he keeps giving me a ball. He stops. "No" when he is running to jump in a lake. He stops. If he was lying down and I just said "no" to him, he'd be wonder what the fuck I was talking about. I used the same for my dc, "no" to stop them doing something. If I walked up to my 9 year old who was lying down and said "no" they'd be confused as fuck as well. And just so you know, I am not a lazy dog owner and as I have already said, my dog understands a lot of commands. He knows that "no" means to stop what he is going to do or what he is doing. (Lying down isn't 'doing' anything, if I want him to stand, I say so or call him)

Yes, but we have taught our dog that no is essentially the freeze command.

Hes a teenager at the moment so he largely ignores us.

“Penelope is about to touch something hot. Do you say, “NO” or do you say, “Penelope come over here and do some Lego” ? By which time Penelope is scalded.”

If Penelope is too young to understand, that’s hot... then she wouldn’t be close enough to scald herself.

If a dog is too young or not trained enough to understand leave or come, then it wouldn’t be close enough to get near whatever it is either.

@PollyRoulson

Initially it is not bollocks to say that dogs do not know what NO means.

As puppies they know very few words and learn by consequences. They learn that NO means the person is stressed, cross, unhappy they do not know what they are meant to do.

It is not a competition to what is better. The science will tell us that dogs are happier when they are given clear behaviours to perform.

Most qualified professional and successful dog trainers will rarely use NO.

It is only an adversive if the dogs see it as a punishment some will, some wont.

Well by those standards a child doesn't know "no" or any other words either, until taught them. Language - all language - is a construct. And please stop projecting what you feel when you say "no" on to other people. I do not feel stressed, cross or unhappy when I say "no". I simply feel that I do not want my dog to do that, and he has learned only that. "No" is a "clear behaviour pattern". Absolutely any word or action can be "punishment" if that is what happens. And actually, I rarely use the word "no" because I do not need to use it often.

There is never any excuse to mistreat an animal or stress it, no more than there is to act in that way towards a child or another person. But some trendy ultimatum about how bad it is to tell your dog "no" is simply nonsense. And there are plenty of qualified and successful dog trainers around who are utterly rubbish at what they do, so please don't make me laugh. Some are great yes, but there are also plenty of rubbish ones. You won't separate out which is which by whether or not they use the word "no". So if you are feeling stressed, cross or unhappy when when you say "no" then the issue is not with the word - it is with you. You could be just as cross with the word "apple". Nothing to do with words. It's about you. And having trained multiple working dogs over my life, I know that and don't need a trainer to spin me the latest money making yarn.

@Moondust001 you put it a lot better than me!

It is interesting how we all train differently

The whole thing. I say "no" when my dog barks. He stops. "No" when he keeps giving me a ball. He stops. "No" when he is running to jump in a lake. He stops.

I would look at why he is barking and prevent the behaviour from occuring so if a frustrated bark stop the dog from becoming frustrated if barking at people walking past the house stop access to seeing the people walking past the house.

I would put the ball away if I did not want the dog bringing me the ball.

If a dog is running to jump in a lake I would just recall him!

Sigh @Moondust001 if you read the thread you will see that it is the ambiguity of No that is the issue.

If I just "NO" there are easier cues for your dog to understand than saying No to dogs will that stop you saying No

I dont think saying No to a dog is necessarily cruel, confusing which can cause stress in some dogs.

Also many people do not say no they say NOOOOO which can be startling but many dogs get over it. (Probably judge you for being a bit nutty and stressy but have no real idea what caused you to have your minor breakdown!)

However there are clearer cues for a dog and clearer cues are easier for a dog to understand with better results and happier dogs win win

@PollyRoulson

It is interesting how we all train differently

The whole thing. I say "no" when my dog barks. He stops. "No" when he keeps giving me a ball. He stops. "No" when he is running to jump in a lake. He stops.

I would look at why he is barking and prevent the behaviour from occuring so if a frustrated bark stop the dog from becoming frustrated if barking at people walking past the house stop access to seeing the people walking past the house.

I would put the ball away if I did not want the dog bringing me the ball.

If a dog is running to jump in a lake I would just recall him!

Sigh @Moondust001 if you read the thread you will see that it is the ambiguity of No that is the issue.

If I just "NO" there are easier cues for your dog to understand than saying No to dogs will that stop you saying No

When the doorbell goes. He gives a woof. I say no he stops. He gives me a ball I say no, he doesnt give it me back. I dont want to recall him. I just don't want him to go in the lake. I say no and he walks along side it. No works, he is 9, I have no issues with my dog and the use of the word no. So you can sigh all you like. Do you enjoy being so patronising?

@tabulahrasa - that’s just silly to say “oh my child would never be near a hot item” or “my dog would never pick up an old sandwich” etc etc.

Because they just might. And you would need to stop them fast.