Do you say NO to your dogs?

[hopingtobehappiness]

My parents have a new puppy and the last time they had a young dog was 25 years ago, back then I remember going with my Dad to dog training classes. They used the shake the tin of coins to stop unwanted behaviour, although mostly it was praise for good behaviour, treats, pats and talking it that high pitched voices only used for babies/ puppies. I remember doing to awards with their two labs.

They have told me they can't tell the new puppy No or use a sound to prevent unwanted behaviour. I personally use ahaha noise that I say with my dog occasionally and I will also say NO or STOP firmly also to the kids too. They say this is aversion training and I disagree. To me the aversion training is spraying water, air horn zapping / citrus collars ( also very popular back in the day.) What do you think and do?

Maybe I've got a cleverer dog then?

@WagsPlease

Dogs don’t understand what ‘no’ means.

Really? I must tell my dog that. Because when I tell him "no" he stops doing what he is doing. He must be an idiot. He's a Border Collie who has been trained to an exceptional standard - he measurably knows the names of over 350 individual toys, and understands constructs like "tidy up" (get all your toys off the floor and put them in your toy box) or "where is Ali" (the alligator toy). But he doesn't know the word "no"? Bollocks.

Thinking about this more I can rarely think of times I need to say no to my dogs.

As puppies they are set up for success, so things I dont want them to do are managed and so prevented and they are rewarded for doing the correct behaviour.

As adults I can not think of a time when I have needed to say no to them. Yes I have asked for behaviours but rarely need to stop them doing things.

Initially it is not bollocks to say that dogs do not know what NO means.

As puppies they know very few words and learn by consequences. They learn that NO means the person is stressed, cross, unhappy they do not know what they are meant to do.

It is not a competition to what is better. The science will tell us that dogs are happier when they are given clear behaviours to perform.

Most qualified professional and successful dog trainers will rarely use NO.

It is only an adversive if the dogs see it as a punishment some will, some wont.

@PollyRoulson

Thinking about this more I can rarely think of times I need to say no to my dogs.

As puppies they are set up for success, so things I dont want them to do are managed and so prevented and they are rewarded for doing the correct behaviour.

As adults I can not think of a time when I have needed to say no to them. Yes I have asked for behaviours but rarely need to stop them doing things.

Me too. Which is why saying ‘no’ is less effective in the long term I think.

If you teach a positive alternative behaviour from the one you want to get rid of (eg lay quietly on your bed while I eat, rather than pester me for food) you get to the stage @PollyRoulson describes where the dog sees no point in behaving badly and the issue simply fades away.

If saying no worked, you would only ever have to say it once or twice and the dog wouldn’t ever do it again, yet so many people end up micro managing for life to interrupt unwanted behaviours that in most cases it’s simply a less effective solution

NO is convenient because it is short and abrupt and gets the dogs attention. I then follow up with praise.
My dog who is not the brightest understands:
DOWN
OFF
LEAVE
WAIT
IN
OUT
COME ON
QUIET
to suit the occasion and what I want her to do.
Nothing wrong with using NO if accompanied by praise when she stops doing something undesirable and dangerous.
the other words/commands are specific and she is well aware of their meaning.
Alternatively to NO I can distract her by whistling sharply.
There is not one way to control a dogs behaviour - depends on the dog - so long as it has the desired effect.

A firm No is fine - and essential - in order to stop something quickly. Some people go, “Fido, no no no no no” in a not-very-cross voice which is hopeless.

Distraction is not effective when it is something the dog should never do, eg going in the oven when you open it. Sometimes you don’t have time to distract, and the dog must learn that that particular action is Never Ever. Distraction could be distraction from any old thing.

commands should be brief and specific. Although any dog worth his salt knows that it’s tone of voice, not the actual words, which make the difference between obeying and shrugging it’s shoulders and carrying right on....

Distraction is not effective when it is something the dog should never do, eg going in the oven when you open it. Sometimes you don’t have time to distract, and the dog must learn that that particular action is Never Ever. Distraction could be distraction from any old thing.*

My dogs would be calmly in their beds if I was cooking or opening the oven...teach an alternative behaviour

I read an article recently how the “Positive Training” ethos is falling a bit short, especially amongst new dog owners. They have interpreted “positive” to mean never telling your dog it can’t do something, which is leading to some dreadful hooligan dogs ruling the roost.

“Distraction is not effective when it is something the dog should never do, eg going in the oven when you open it. Sometimes you don’t have time to distract, and the dog must learn that that particular action is Never Ever. Distraction could be distraction from any old thing.”

Who’s saying you should distract a dog from things like an oven?...

If no was so effective then we would have no lead pulling, no problem with recall, and perfectly trained dogs
Could say the same about positive reinforcement, to be honest. Any form of training, done badly, will have limited success, and I'm forever coming across people who have tried positive training with Fido, and are complaining that Fido still pulls, chases, runs off etc. They've don't it badly, or not spent long enough on it, or not found what reward motivates Fido.

'No!' in this house is interpreted by the dogs as 'look at me at once! Right, now we will discuss it further - wait, recall, whatever.'

They also understand a bellowed 'STOP!' if I don't have my whistle in my mouth in the split second when I need it.

My dog and all 3 cats know what 'no' means. I think my dog understands quite a lot actually, but I realise not all dogs are the same.

I do “ahah” and she knows it means “stop what you’re doing”. It’s just a sharp sound to interrupt her action instantly. She understands this sound and what it means.

The sound is a distraction and redirect her attention to me so I can give a command and if necessary give me a chance to remove/block access to whatever she was going to get.

Positive training has been misinterpreted by many people. It is not rewarding the good and ignoring the bad. Not sure about dogs ruling the roost but what you are saying confirms that dogs like clear cue that they understand well. I would argue No is not a clear cue.

It is rewarding the behaviour you want and controlling the behaviour you do not want.

Those of you who have a dog that understand No - Lets proof the No command. When your dog is lying down relaxed say No to the dog and see what they do?

If they understand NO to mean stop doing what they are doing - they will get up and stop lying down.

Thinking about it, my dog have a really good range of understanding to a lot of things. If I tell him to go and wait in the kitchen for example he goes and waits in the kitchen.. when we're camping and I say go and get in the van, he does. He finds the kids by name. He can pick up and find particular toys. So I 100% disagree dogs can't be taught what 'no' means.

@aiwblam

My dog understands exactly what “no” means, especially as it will be accompanied with a particularly strict tone of voice. Did the same with my kids. The dog is now adult and the kids are teens, all perfectly well adjusted!

Exactly.

It’s more unkind to leave the dog half trained.

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

If no was so effective then we would have no lead pulling, no problem with recall, and perfectly trained dogs Could say the same about positive reinforcement, to be honest. Any form of training, done badly, will have limited success, and I'm forever coming across people who have tried positive training with Fido, and are complaining that Fido still pulls, chases, runs off etc. They've don't it badly, or not spent long enough on it, or not found what reward motivates Fido.

'No!' in this house is interpreted by the dogs as 'look at me at once! Right, now we will discuss it further - wait, recall, whatever.'

They also understand a bellowed 'STOP!' if I don't have my whistle in my mouth in the split second when I need it.

Yes I agree that most No commands are a focus on me command for many dogs not a stop what you are doing command

Stop is of course a trained behaviour many dogs learn (often taught through negative methods) but can also be taught through positive methods quicker and less impact on the dog (or the dogs recall )

Also some dogs are very biddable... and some are not. Having had a “spirited” young fellow i despaired at training sessions offered by someone with a Labrador with a halo. You have to figure out the most effective - and kindest - way to get important messages through to your particular dog.

When your dog is lying down relaxed say No to the dog and see what they do?

If they understand NO to mean stop doing what they are doing - they will get up and stop lying down. smile

Lying down isn’t doing anything. They’re doing nothing so there is nothing to stop. they might give you an eye roll.

@LST - my dog also knew my dcs’ names. I could say, “Go and wake up Tom!” and he’d head to the right room (and break the door down). And also, “”Where’s Jane?” and he’d find her. He could also fetch some of his toys by name. Oh, no, now I’m having my daily weep

[quote IrmaFayLear]@LST - my dog also knew my dcs’ names. I could say, “Go and wake up Tom!” and he’d head to the right room (and break the door down). And also, “”Where’s Jane?” and he’d find her. He could also fetch some of his toys by name. Oh, no, now I’m having my daily weep [/quote]
Oh I'm so sorry 😞 That is exactly what my collie is like. It is painful to think of a life without him. Sending hugs

Lol @ the Labrador with a halo

It didn’t come like that, it was trained! Fairly well too, it seems

I do use no, but I'm sure they don't understand it, you could say anything in the appropriate tone and they soon get the gist. It's usually used to divert their attention off something or simply getting their attention.

Positive praise does tend to work better, but sometimes you do need to ensure they understand not to do something and that can be done with the correct tone

“Lying down isn’t doing anything. They’re doing nothing so there is nothing to stop”

They’re not doing nothing... they’re lying down.

But if you want to be awkward.

Put them in a down stay, then say no.