Does anyone else struggle to walk their dog during pheasant season?

[Badgershy]

The buggers are absolutely everywhere at the moment. We do 2 walks through private land (which you're allowed to walk in) but they do shoots and have these huge fenced off areas full of pheasants which of course they escape from.

My dog is an 18 month old terrier spaniel Cross with questionable recall at the best of times. We manage him pretty well on a long trailing line but when he's on the scent of something I have to hold the end of it. He's been like a thing possessed this weekend, so so strong, so hyper, darting from side to side, pulling at full strength, completely deaf to me, out of control really. He brought me to tears at one point as I just couldn't get down a steep bank with him. Thankfully there was no one around to watch me scrambling down it on my arse. I returned to the car feeling like a complete failure of a dog owner after passing a few other walkers with their dogs trotting along nicely off lead.

I dont know if I'm looking for advice, sympathy or someone who's experienced the same. I think the answer is to avoid these areas while there's so many pheasants about which is a shame.

If this is your attitude @Ihaventgottimeforthis, then you shouldn't have a dog.
I let my dog chase the pheasants, squirrel & deer in the woods.
On our regular routes he tracks me round & appears every couple of mins.
I'm not fussed about him disturbing these.

I'm not surprised people don't like me letting my dog chase squirrels etc, that's completely your prerogative, but why does it mean I shouldn't have a dog?
Genuinely interested.

I mean, I also think the majority of people I see with overweight, badly trained, stressed & anxious dogs who are home alone most of the day and don't get any time to exhibit natural behaviour or get any decent exercise ALSO shouldn't be allowed to have dogs.
So I'm just wondering where the sweet spot of people who are allowed dogs is.

but why does it mean I shouldn't have a dog?

Because you owning a dog is a danger to other animals, and to the dog itself but you don’t have the ability to see that. So no you aren’t suitable for dog ownership.

(And if people are concerned about the impacts on wildlife then I'm an ecologist who has been working in the environment sector for 25 years & I am at peace with my decisions )

*So I'm just wondering where the sweet spot of people who are allowed dogs is.

People who exercise their dogs safely? Hardly a radical idea.

I think Uhtred I make a risk-based assessment, knowing my dog & his level of training plus the areas we walk, each time I let my dog off lead, but I appreciate you can't know that, or believe me or think I'm right anyway.

I've had to stop my usual walk as recently my normally good recall sprocker has apparently gone stone deaf and lost his sense of taste so even treats aren't working. Sticking to 2 laps of a more boring walk for a while.

I think Uhtred I make a risk-based assessment, knowing my dog & his level of training plus the areas we walk, each time I let my dog off lead

So in your risk assessment, scaring other animals is absolutely fine? That doesn’t give me much faith in your risk assessment capabilities tbh.

18 months is still full on teen age for dogs, my dog is almost 2 and slowly coming out the other side.

He will calm down op and until then try and avoid pheasant areas, I think walking anywhere atm is stressful as all the livestock is out as well as ground nesting birds etc.

To be honest, yes. I don't mind my dog springing wildlife, I scare wildlife just by my presence, as do other walkers, cyclists etc.
I don't necessarily agree that a squirrel has a right not to be scared, but that probably makes me a terrible person.

Well there you go, you answered your own question about why you shouldn’t have a dog.

@Ihaventgottimeforthis

I think Uhtred I make a risk-based assessment, knowing my dog & his level of training plus the areas we walk, each time I let my dog off lead, but I appreciate you can't know that, or believe me or think I'm right anyway.

Yes we’re chilled around grey squirrels. They are not indigenous and place the rather sweet reds at risk. We don’t mind pheasant, except she will go off for hours if there are lots around and it’s not much fun staying out for four hours in pouring rainy awaiting her return. It’s the one she sees half a mile away that’s the problem. She’s not bothered by deer at all, but our old Dalmatian would want to run with then. He’d think he was part of the herd. He wasn’t aggressive towards them, stopped when they stopped but was a bit confused about eating grass and bushes. We discouraged him strongly because of the distances they cover rather than any fear of him harming them. Deer in sight meant he’d need to be held to heel. We’d let her have a brief chase of pheasants, but it is never brief. She gets too driven and focused on setting, from her time on the grouse moors. If she sets, she’ll hold her position for an hour or more and is impossible to see in long grass or thicket. She usually has instant recall and can be held to heel but she’s quivering and entirely stressed trying to hold it against her instincts.

I do have internal questions around the ethics of pet ownership but it's more about carbon footprint, where his meat is sourced, is it right to have a pet, rather than whether I let him chase squirrels up trees or not.
Ecologically speaking, a 'landscape of fear' is viewed as a positive thing when it comes to wolves in Yellowstone or lynx in Kielder; in fact in terms of woodland habitat restoration in the UK, keeping deer & squirrels on the move would be a very positive thing. So much so that I am currently wondering whether setting up newly planted woodlands as short term dog walking paddock businesses might be a complementary management approach - vastly reducing the problem of deer & squirrel damage through regular disturbance, providing stimulating exercise for under-walked dogs, and an income incentive for landowners.
Pheasants, hopefully it won't be too long before they're gone from our countryside altogether.

@Ihaventgottimeforthis but Wolves and Lynx are apex predators?
There shouldn’t be any ‘landscape of fear’ for them as they are top predators?

I mean the wolves & lynx create a landscape of fear for large herbivores, as our dogs could do for squirrels & deer.

I mean we're not talking a Fenton type situation here where a giant herd of deer is being pursued into the path of incoming traffic, that would clearly fail even my risk assessment, but the chasing of a squirrel up a tree, the flushing of a pheasant in the woods. It does pose an interesting question of why I draw a line where I do though...

I mean the wolves & lynx create a landscape of fear for large herbivores, as our dogs could do for squirrels & deer
Oh right, that does make more sense

But I’m not sure domestic dogs are comparable.

Many dogs can’t catch squirrels but I suspect letting dogs act out on instinct and chase deer would result in mass non lethal maulings of deer.

It would be exactly like the Fenton scenario, only large amounts of deer would have to be found and PTS because some will inevitably be bitten.

Domestic dogs won’t be ‘properly hunting’ like a pack of wolves, they won’t be seeking out the old and injured like wolves typically do.

Domestic pet dogs will be giving chase to anything in sight and taking bites out of deer within striking range.

And it is my understanding that wolves don’t create constant fear and movement anyway.
Wolves have been pictured amongst very relaxed prey animals before, same for lions.
The prey animals seem to be able to sense when they are out on a hunt and when they are full.

I think the vast vast majority of pet dogs won't get within spitting distance let alone mauling distance of deer in a woodland.
It's more a case of - on the rare occasion they spot one - the deer is gone very rapidly. Certainly my scenario, why I'm not concerned, is because my dog returns to me very quickly, within a couple of minutes.
He hasn't got a hope in hell of catching a squirrel or pheasant either.
I think with frequent disturbance then deer, like with elk etc, are just more likely to keep on the move or ideally avoid busier bits of woodland altogether. Thereby possibly shifting the problem more to fields of crops, but if it protects woodland habitats then I'm not fussed.
I'm not advocating people with untrained pet dogs let them loose willy nilly, just that in cases where dogs have good recall & other risks are v low, then occasional wildlife disturbance of deer, squirrels & pheasants is relatively harmless - certainly not worthy of a lifetime ban on dog ownership

Dogs should be on a lead at all times, unless it happens to be your own land. They can attack and kill many other types of wildlife. I don't understand why this is not done as a matter of course. The rights of wildlife really do trump the right of a pampered pet to have a run around off the lead. It is a very rare dog owner who can ACTUALLY control their dog and have it obey when not on a lead.

I think the vast vast majority of pet dogs won't get within spitting distance let alone mauling distance of deer in a woodland
Depends on how many deer, how dense the cover is, the breed and age of the dog’s and how many dogs have chased prior though doesn’t it?

On a walk yesterday in one park (where there are no deer) we saw at least 12 dogs, there may have been more but I can remember 12.
Some leashed, some not.
We were at that park less than an hour.
In 24 hours the number of dogs passing through that park must be huge.

If there were deer present and just a few of the dogs present each hour gave chase the deer would be being chased pretty much all day...
Which would surely lead to them becoming extremely stressed and sick and tired and easier to catch and injure?

Certainly my scenario, why I'm not concerned, is because my dog returns to me very quickly, within a couple of minutes
That to me, suggests a dog with relatively low prey drive and high biddability though.
There are a large volume of dogs who wouldn’t stop until they caught something, lots of dogs who find hunting SO exhilarating they don’t respond to their owners calls even if they usually have great recall.

I think with frequent disturbance then deer, like with elk etc, are just more likely to keep on the move or ideally avoid busier bits of woodland altogether. Thereby possibly shifting the problem more to fields of crops, but if it protects woodland habitats then I'm not fussed
If the number of dogs was low, I would be inclined to agree with you.
But it isn’t.
Almost everyone seems to have a dog (or two or three!) now.

I'm not advocating people with untrained pet dogs let them loose willy nilly
Which is precisely what would happen if wildlife chasing wasn’t so frowned upon and views such as yours were more common.
People literally would just let them off and not be bothered.

Very good points BigWolf, I guess I am lucky with where I am able to walk, and the level of obedience I have with my dog - although to be fair that's not luck, it's hard work. The majority of dogs perhaps aren't safe to be let off lead, which is a tragedy for those dogs.
Ginghamstarfish I think a life of a dog which never has down time off lead is a sad life indeed. If that was a rule, I wouldn't be a dog owner. It's why seeing untrained dogs winds me up.

My issue with dogs chasing anything is generally a chasing dog is an out of control dog.

I also argue that a high drive dog is actually easier to train a controlled chase near pheasants animals etc as their drive can be used for reinforcing the correct behaviour.

I also argue that a high drive dog is actually easier to train a controlled chase near pheasants animals etc as their drive can be used for reinforcing the correct behaviour
But wouldn’t that only be possible if the dog in question was a keen to please breed too?
I mean, what if the dog was a Patterdale or other breed known for being both high prey drive and stubborn/independent?
Chasing/hunting is such an exciting thing for dogs, how could an owner of an independent breed ever beat the excitement of the hunt which would be required to train the controlled chase or recall?

BigWolfLittleWolf not may dogs are really that keen to please, they are keen to be reinforced in a way they love.

Pendantic warning I have never meet a stubborn or independent dog but I have meet a dog that is very hard to find what motivates them but once you have training can start.

So your example of a Patterdale in the hands of an inexperienced handler would seem like hard work to train but if they have a high prey then the motivato/reinforcer is there. Encourage controlled chasing onto items that are reinforcing and appropriate.

A bit of sausage or calling back to a ball would not work at all but a dog that has been trained to chase after a rabbit skin and been trained in low level distraction areas would be more controllable. Whether the average dog owner who wants to just go for a walk with their pet dog wants to put in this level of training is doubtful and a lead is then the best management method