People walking cats and rabbits on leads in parks

[AvocadosBeforeMortgages]

Utter fools. Do they not like their pets?

I've come across this at least 4 times now - people (all different!) walking cats and, in one case, a rabbit, on a lead.

In all cases, these are parks where dogs are allowed off lead and the vast majority are off lead. Including everything from ex-racing greyhounds to terriers.

I spoke to rabbit woman and pointed out the dangers. She said she'd just pick the rabbit up - while seemingly failing to account for the fact greyhounds can travel at 40mph and jump higher than she could possibly lift the rabbit.

Yesterday I saw this on-lead cat before my own dog did (a small miracle - from a distance I thought it was a puppy), and warned them my dog wasn't cat friendly. They then decided to stop sitting down in the park and instead FOLLOW US through the park.

Presumably when it goes wrong they'll be whining that the dog was out of control - but presumably they'd also be whining if they wandered out blindfolded onto a 70mph road and got run over. It's asking for trouble.

I'm not convinced cats or rabbits enjoy being walked - and surely the much safer / more pragmatic option would be to walk them somewhere where dogs aren't allowed to be off lead?

Let's pray this doesn't catch on as a trend

I'm with @Ineedaneasteregg both in the content of their posts and the user name There are no health and welfare issues with me taking my cat out on a lead unless there is a dangerously out of control dog.
If an owner cannot stop their dog from jumping up and mauling me and the animal I am holding (whether that be a cat/small dog/small child) then it is 100% the owner's fault. I'm glad to say I have barely come across a dog that jumps up and all the ones that have have been smaller breeds - Staffies being the largest. Thank goodness I live in an area where for the most part owners train their dogs to an appropriate level and leash or muzzle them when required.

I'm not understanding how an on lead dog can ever be a problem to an on lead cat. It can't reach them so how can it be a problem?

@Ineedaneasteregg

I can't talk about rabbits, I don't know enough about them either way.

But my basic point stands that a dog on a short lead shouldn't pose a problem to a cat on lead , (at least it didn't cause my cat issues.)
Anymore than it causes a problem to another dog, person etc.

If the dog is unstable enough to cause a health and safety risk while on a lead it should be muzzled and a busy park is probably the wrong place for it.

It isn't up to other park users to protect themselves from dogs it has to be the dog owners responsibility to do this.
I say this as a dog owner.
Dogs have no special rights to park access over and above other people or animals.

That's because you're assuming all cats behave exactly like yours What a strange assumption

I also find it odd that you're willing to gamble your cat's safety and welfare on the assumption that all dog owners will have habituated their dog's not to approach on-lead cats (there are fairly limited training opportunities for this so let's face it, it's not an achievable reality.)

I certainly wouldn't be risking my cat's safety to prove a point

@MiddlesexGirl

I'm not understanding how an on lead dog can ever be a problem to an on lead cat. It can't reach them so how can it be a problem?

Then you haven't read the full thread. I explained this near to the beginning.

@Ineedaneasteregg

I didn't choose to walk my cat in very busy public parks but all of the issues you have listed OP come from dogs not being controlled.

A dog which may injure another animal in a horrific way shouldn't be put in a position where it can do so. The dogs owners need to be more responsible.
This dog could come across wild animals, a cat mooching around freely, small dc or other dogs.

It is simply victim blaming to suggest that the cat walker is the person who is being irresponsible rather than the person who has the animal who is going to cause injury or worse.

The cat walker is responsible for managing the behavior of the cat, the dog walker is responsible for managing the behavior of the dog.

Personally I'd choose having a live, non-traumatised cat / rabbit over the moral high ground. But perhaps that's where we differ.

I see the world as it is - with the risks inherent in exposing cats / rabbits to dogs (off lead or otherwise - this thread has made me learn about gut stasis and spines in rabbits - every day is a school day).

You choose to see the world as it ought to be - and assume that everyone and their dog will act correctly. I assume that something will go wrong in entirely predictable ways.

It is not victim blaming to suggest that you should consider the risks of your actions - even if your actions are legal - before doing them.

For the same reason, I wouldn't let children play in traffic - even though car drivers aren't allowed to hit them, and should be slow and attentive enough to avoid it.

I also lock my doors when I go out because, while burglary is illegal, it does happen.

I wouldn't leave my drink unattended in a pub either, because while drink spiking is illegal, sometimes people do it.

Any sensible person takes sensible precautions to safeguard themselves, their home, their children and their pets.

It's no good being in the right when your pet is dead right.

@MiddlesexGirl

I'm with *@Ineedaneasteregg* both in the content of their posts and the user name There are no health and welfare issues with me taking my cat out on a lead unless there is a dangerously out of control dog. If an owner cannot stop their dog from jumping up and mauling me and the animal I am holding (whether that be a cat/small dog/small child) then it is 100% the owner's fault. I'm glad to say I have barely come across a dog that jumps up and all the ones that have have been smaller breeds - Staffies being the largest. Thank goodness I live in an area where for the most part owners train their dogs to an appropriate level and leash or muzzle them when required.

What about a playful dog that has no intention of biting?

That certainly wouldn't be dangerously out of control.

Could certainly stress your cat, cause limb entanglement in the lead and possible fractures or joint dislocations, or result in spinal trauma if the cat tried to dart away. At the very least it would be unpleasant.

Haven't rtft. But having seen on YouTube a film where a leashed cat was spooked, there's no way I would ever consider putting any of my cats on a leash full stop. The person holding the lead got very badly bitten by a frightened animal.

It's also worth noting that the same law that someone referenced up thread that means that cats do not confer liability on their owners because they aren't 'property' or fully domesticated in the same way dogs are, also means that they don't have the same protections in law.

You don't have to report a cat if you run one over or if your dog attacks it, even if it is on a lead

www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q23.htm

So no, a dog that attacked a cat in public would not be dangerously out of control from a legal point of view

I'm not saying that's morally right, but the DDA gets bandied about incorrectly an awful lot on here and I think it's important that people are aware of its limitations

@Veterinari

It's also worth noting that the same law that someone referenced up thread that means that cats do not confer liability on their owners because they aren't 'property' or fully domesticated in the same way dogs are, also means that they don't have the same protections in law.

You don't have to report a cat if you run one over or if your dog attacks it, even if it is on a lead

www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q23.htm

So no, a dog that attacked a cat in public would not be dangerously out of control from a legal point of view

I'm not saying that's morally right, but the DDA gets bandied about incorrectly an awful lot on here and I think it's important that people are aware of its limitations

Except if the cat is on a lead held by a person, or in the arms of a person then surely the person would be at risk of being bitten by the dog whilst trying to protect their cat. So if the cat or rabbit owner was worried they would be bitten (a reasonable concern/risk when a dog is running at you and the pet your holding in a predatory way) then the DDA surely would apply. Prosecution is very unlikely though of course.

Except if the cat is on a lead held by a person, or in the arms of a person then surely the person would be at risk of being bitten by the dog whilst trying to protect their cat. So if the cat or rabbit owner was worried they would be bitten (a reasonable concern/risk when a dog is running at you and the pet your holding in a predatory way) then the DDA surely would apply. Prosecution is very unlikely though of course.

I think it would be a stretch. And not something I'd want to rely on. Plus as Avocadoes has rightly pointed out, being 'morally or legally right' is pretty poor comfort if you have a maimed, traumatised or dead pet.
Why risk it 🤷‍♀️

@Veterinari

Except if the cat is on a lead held by a person, or in the arms of a person then surely the person would be at risk of being bitten by the dog whilst trying to protect their cat. So if the cat or rabbit owner was worried they would be bitten (a reasonable concern/risk when a dog is running at you and the pet your holding in a predatory way) then the DDA surely would apply. Prosecution is very unlikely though of course.

I think it would be a stretch. And not something I'd want to rely on. Plus as Avocadoes has rightly pointed out, being 'morally or legally right' is pretty poor comfort if you have a maimed, traumatised or dead pet.
Why risk it 🤷‍♀️

True I’d never risk it personally and don’t think prosecution is likely in most dog walk situations anyway unless there’s really serious injury to a human

17:04Veterinari

MiddlesexGirl

I'm not understanding how an on lead dog can ever be a problem to an on lead cat. It can't reach them so how can it be a problem?

Then you haven't read the full thread. I explained this near to the beginning.

As you're not the OP I'd be grateful if you would repost this explanation as trying to find it in 16 pages of posts is like finding a needle in a haystack.

Wrt your further reply, my cat is at zero risk of harm because I will have picked her up. Unless of course I come across the kind of dog which is going to attack and potentially kill me which I'd say, despite recent news stories, is highly unlikely.

In fact she is at far higher risk of injury and death now as she is free to roam including to cross roads.... quiet roads but still.
However that is the risk I take in owning cats and believing it is better for most of them to have their freedom.

@MiddlesexGirl

17:04Veterinari

MiddlesexGirl

I'm not understanding how an on lead dog can ever be a problem to an on lead cat. It can't reach them so how can it be a problem?

Then you haven't read the full thread. I explained this near to the beginning.

As you're not the OP I'd be grateful if you would repost this explanation as trying to find it in 16 pages of posts is like finding a needle in a haystack.

Wrt your further reply, my cat is at zero risk of harm because I will have picked her up. Unless of course I come across the kind of dog which is going to attack and potentially kill me which I'd say, despite recent news stories, is highly unlikely.

In fact she is at far higher risk of injury and death now as she is free to roam including to cross roads.... quiet roads but still.
However that is the risk I take in owning cats and believing it is better for most of them to have their freedom.

Some of them are in response to other posters so I can't quote but start at the beginning of the thread. The relevant posts are at 9.24 onwards. But there are others scattered throughout. You be better off reading the thread

I have actually read the whole thread (sadly!l - just can't remember your responses. I have a look at 9.24 on though - thank you.

OK. So from my pov with my cat she just isn't that dog averse. We wouldn't be so close to a dog that it would ever be an issue and when I spot an unknown dog I watch it to see its reaction and pick my cat up if it looks remotely interested.
Plus she's on a harness and short lead so the yank factor would be very small just supposing I was distracted.
Which wouldn't happen anyway as there is one narrow path where I can see in front and behind for the couple of hundred yards and then a very wide open area where it's impossible for dog to get close without me noticing.

So all the above makes my cat safer on a lead than free to roam. And yet I let her out every day at probably considerably greater risk and am happy to do so.

The DDA isn’t the only relevant legislation, there’s protection for some animals and for possessions. If your dog damages someone’s car they can claim. If you’re deemed to be negligent and it damages their pedigree cat they can sue you. However, it’s not really about that as nobody wants that to happen! I’m pretty fed up of random cats in my garden being antisocial so if an owner wants to take them for walks instead of being free range I’m very much in support of that and would welcome exercise areas for them. With any pet I think it’s really up to the owner to decide what’s appropriate. What isn’t ok is for your pet to impinge on other people. The different classification of cats and dogs does mean that there is a different amount of accountability though (it’s still antisocial!)

You're right. The solution is to ban predator animals from parks, and then prey animals can happily walk stress free. Or was that not what you wanted?

@MiddlesexGirl

OK. So from my pov with my cat she just isn't that dog averse. We wouldn't be so close to a dog that it would ever be an issue and when I spot an unknown dog I watch it to see its reaction and pick my cat up if it looks remotely interested. Plus she's on a harness and short lead so the yank factor would be very small just supposing I was distracted. Which wouldn't happen anyway as there is one narrow path where I can see in front and behind for the couple of hundred yards and then a very wide open area where it's impossible for dog to get close without me noticing.

So all the above makes my cat safer on a lead than free to roam. And yet I let her out every day at probably considerably greater risk and am happy to do so.

But you can accept that your specific individual circumstances are not universally applicable?

And not applicable to the OP?

Absolutely not applicable to all cats. But I never said it was.
What I objected to was the blanket 'it's detrimental to any cat and not putting their welfare first'.
I've actually just been looking at some videos taken when we took her for a walk and noticed I took her out on a local footpath with our dog too. A route she would often take with us when free to roam. Again .... fenced off footpath. Can see a long way in front and behind. She is very very happy. Trotting along with her tail up in the air waving gently. Waiting for the dog to catch her up. Four weeks earlier we didn't know she would live.

@MiddlesexGirl

Absolutely not applicable to all cats. But I never said it was. What I objected to was the blanket 'it's detrimental to any cat and not putting their welfare first'. I've actually just been looking at some videos taken when we took her for a walk and noticed I took her out on a local footpath with our dog too. A route she would often take with us when free to roam. Again .... fenced off footpath. Can see a long way in front and behind. She is very very happy. Trotting along with her tail up in the air waving gently. Waiting for the dog to catch her up. Four weeks earlier we didn't know she would live.

It's no been blanket. If you RTFT you'd see I linked to responsible cat walking guidelines earlier.

They include not walking in places like the OP described. We're responding to her OP

@nocoolnamesleft

You're right. The solution is to ban predator animals from parks, and then prey animals can happily walk stress free. Or was that not what you wanted?

Are you asking me? I don’t really care what pets are in the park or the owners methods of controlling them if they’re not affecting me. Happy for their owners to decide what’s best. I don’t think one pet has any more right than another to be there. If you think something is illegal report it. I’m fine having different areas to suit different peoples’ needs if needs be.

@nocoolnamesleft

You're right. The solution is to ban predator animals from parks, and then prey animals can happily walk stress free. Or was that not what you wanted?

Well it'd be much more peaceful without all the humans

@Veterinari

I agree *@AvocadosBeforeMortgages* It seems to be a trend.

Firstly rabbits and cats are prey species with a strong flight instinct so being walked through a park smelling of dogs and surrounded by dogs (even on leads) is incredibly stressful for them, especially when they cannot run away. In rabbits stress can lead to gut stasis which can be fatal. In cats it can lead to a whole host of medical issues.

Secondly cats and especially rabbits have fragile spines. A rabbit can easily break its own back if it kicks/struggles. Now imagine that rabbit or cat in a lead/harness as a dog moved towards them and they instinctively dart away, only to be forcefully yanked back by their restraint. The pressure involved presents a very real risk of a significant spinal injury. And that can happen even with well controlled dogs on leads - they are still shit scary for cats/rabbits who will try and run away. It would be nice if people could perhaps actually consider the welfare of their pets rather than their next Instagram photo opportunity.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow
And rabbits need lots of space too. Why do dog owners have superiority? I wanted to take my rabbits out, but they wouldn’t wear leads.

Because animal welfare is about meeting the animal's needs not doing what you want. Restricting a prey animal's flight ability whilst forcing it to share space with predators benefits no one, least of all the cats/rabbits.

The open space is there for all animal lovers not just dog lovers. And l love dogs!

Again you seem focussed on your feelings. Animal welfare is not about what you want. It's about what is best for the animal.

This is an excellent no nonsence post Hopefully these idiots who walk their cats and rabbits on leads in areas with dogs will read it and take heed.

I am less convinced about the similarities between cats and rabbits.

They are are about the same size but otherwise surely very different kinds of animals?

Cats are obligate carnivores, they hunt instinctively. They aren't at the top of the food chain but equally they don't think that everything other than a blade of grass is out to eat them.

That doesn't mean that they won't get frightened at times but is true of any animal including dogs.
The animal that spooked most when I took it out was my horse.
My current dog is the next nerviest animal I have owned.

I walked my cat over a decade ago, well before SM was a real thing because it was in his best interest.

I see no evidence that dog owners have become any better at accepting they need to control their animals in the last ten years in fact it seems to have become worse.

Despite having a dog I'm inclined to think that setting up some fenced dog areas in parks for unleashed dogs and then insisting dogs are leashed in all other public spaces (same as the USA) would be a good way to go.