People walking cats and rabbits on leads in parks

[AvocadosBeforeMortgages]

Utter fools. Do they not like their pets?

I've come across this at least 4 times now - people (all different!) walking cats and, in one case, a rabbit, on a lead.

In all cases, these are parks where dogs are allowed off lead and the vast majority are off lead. Including everything from ex-racing greyhounds to terriers.

I spoke to rabbit woman and pointed out the dangers. She said she'd just pick the rabbit up - while seemingly failing to account for the fact greyhounds can travel at 40mph and jump higher than she could possibly lift the rabbit.

Yesterday I saw this on-lead cat before my own dog did (a small miracle - from a distance I thought it was a puppy), and warned them my dog wasn't cat friendly. They then decided to stop sitting down in the park and instead FOLLOW US through the park.

Presumably when it goes wrong they'll be whining that the dog was out of control - but presumably they'd also be whining if they wandered out blindfolded onto a 70mph road and got run over. It's asking for trouble.

I'm not convinced cats or rabbits enjoy being walked - and surely the much safer / more pragmatic option would be to walk them somewhere where dogs aren't allowed to be off lead?

Let's pray this doesn't catch on as a trend

Also even if you do train all of those things it does not avoid the considerable stress, heath and welfare issues that rabbits, and potentially some cats may face when being lead-walked
And which a surprising number of posters are keen to ignore in order to push their 'dogs on leads' agenda
I agree, I would be absolutely disgusted and absolutely furious to see a rabbit (less so a cat but I still think it’s irresponsible) on lead.

Even taking dogs out of the equation It is unspeakably cruel, I have had rabbits before and no kind, responsible person who knew anything about rabbits would put them in such a situation.

Dogs aside, you are also expecting them to deal with traffic, bikes, noisy children, potential crowds of people and the grass and weeds they will inevitably eat on the walk may well have been sprayed with toxic pesticides and/or weedkiller which can make them extremely ill.

A harness and lead seems more common now. I used to see long lines used a lot but see them far less often in recent years. I still sometimes use them if walking dogs of labrador-size down for family or friends. Long lines are only really useful as a gentle reminder for our dogs as they wouldn't stop them if they really wanted to go and could cause injury. Training, the relationship, socialisation, knowing the individual dog in and out and being very watchful and aware in the environment is what we can rely on. This is in the countryside - I guess in busy parks there would be the risk of entanglement?

Why is everyone being so snidey
You literally came on and insinuated that anyone who couldn’t enable a dog to greet another dog normally on lead, couldn’t handle leash reactivity or get to drips with playing fetch on a lead or allow dog to dog play on lead as not sensible, unintelligent and uncaring!

In all the time I’ve been on here I have never ever known you to be anything other than really polite and helpful.

I was and am completely taken aback by your incredibly rude answer.

I could answer each point but not sure you really want to know my opinion tbh
On the contrary, I’d love to know.
Maybe it would change people’s opinion that being on lead is not in the dog’s best interests if you could educate them how to solve issues like leash reactivity.

I am off to a more positive environment

I am highly doubtful that the attitudes encountered sometimes walking our cat from some dog owners was based on concerns for our cat.

I think it much more likely that it came from irritation that these owners had to step up and manage their dogs.
Like a grumpy parent when someone asks them to stop letting their toddler rampage through a restaurant.

They had to keep their dogs on a lead and therefore probably had to undertake more exercise themselves than they wanted.

I have no problem with dogs being off lead but far too many are when their owners can't control them, which is entitled and often lazy.

There isn't a hierarchy of public space rights with dogs at the top of the animal pyramid.

It also seems that is very difficult for people who have no experience of walking cats to listen to those who have.
My cat was less reactive walking than my dog is. It may not be the norm but it is perfectly possible.
He enjoyed interacting and accepting strokes, which he regarded as his due. He liked sniffing the grass.
Cats like all animals including humans have different personalities within some species characteristics.

WiganNorthWest
I've got more than one dog and they like to chase each other, play tug, fetch toys, and do all of these things with other dogs that they know and have been socialised with. Long lines would get in the way and be more risky than them playing off lead.

I trained mine with them and still go back to them if any of them need a refresher

@Ineedaneasteregg

I am highly doubtful that the attitudes encountered sometimes walking our cat from some dog owners was based on concerns for our cat.

I think it much more likely that it came from irritation that these owners had to step up and manage their dogs.
Like a grumpy parent when someone asks them to stop letting their toddler rampage through a restaurant.

They had to keep their dogs on a lead and therefore probably had to undertake more exercise themselves than they wanted.

I have no problem with dogs being off lead but far too many are when their owners can't control them, which is entitled and often lazy.

There isn't a hierarchy of public space rights with dogs at the top of the animal pyramid.

It also seems that is very difficult for people who have no experience of walking cats to listen to those who have.
My cat was less reactive walking than my dog is. It may not be the norm but it is perfectly possible.
He enjoyed interacting and accepting strokes, which he regarded as his due. He liked sniffing the grass.
Cats like all animals including humans have different personalities within some species characteristics.

I suspect it's both. I personally think it's irresponsible to walk even a cat like yours in places where dogs routinely exercise, or like those described by the OP.

Whether you like it or not, those situations are dangerous and often stressful for cats on leads.

On the other hand walking a habituated cat in quiet dog-free areas (I've seen cemeteries suggested) and in accordance with welfare guidance is a different matter.

No dog in the world has 100% perfect recall. I have a friend who trains GSDs and malenois for the police and army he travels all round Europe entering competitions for dogs that are trained to guard and he’s very successful he’s also regularly called as an expert witness in court cases relating to dog behaviour. His dogs are incredibly well trained he spends his every spare moment doing some sort of training with them. He’ll tell you there’s not a dog in the world that has a 100% perfect recall. Anyone walk a cat or rabbit in an area with dogs on or off the lead has taken leave if their senses and it’s cruel. Why take the risk? I live in a rural farming community you don’t see rabbits or cats walked on leads round here most people would think your nuts.
Wild rabbits are generally considered to be vermin by most farmers etc there’s far to many of them they cause significant damage to grass crops and they cause erosion to soil/land and many farmers are delighted if dogs kill them!

@Ineedaneasteregg

I used to ride as a teenager and dogs off lead around horses can also be problematic. Often considerable distances from their owners. It was different in as much as the dogs are at much higher risk but there is the same level of entitlement about their dogs being off lead regardless of them being trained enough.

I agree with this and think the problem has got worse. As well as it putting the dog at risk, the risk to horse and rider can be significant.

Leash reactivity is caused by several factors most of which can be avoided if the dogs are trained correctly.

1. Puppy greetings allowing the dog to meet every dog they pass will increase the chance of leash reactivity at a later date. Puppies need to be taught to focus on owners and not 100% on dogs.

1. Frustration causes leash aggression often the dog wanting to meet the other dog and becoming frustrated when they cant. Point 1 can help prevent this and also conditioning to focus on alternative behaviour to the greeting

1. Fear can cause leash aggression and the dog being put too close to a trigger so they react - this is a simple one to solve keep the dog underthreshold and a greater distance to the trigger.

In all cases training would be needed away from dogs (so a leased area is great as you can work easier at a distance you can control)

I am not in this for a fight and think you misunderstood my previous comment. I did mean educated caring owners, we all know that not all of them are.

Also as an aside all dogs will be better off not playing fetch tbh. the injuries and adrenalin rush caused by fetch is not to be recommended. Hunting scenting games would be much better and incidentally help with any chasing prey drive. Fetch would not.

Sits back hard hat on ready for the abuse

@Ineedaneasteregg

I am highly doubtful that the attitudes encountered sometimes walking our cat from some dog owners was based on concerns for our cat.

I think it much more likely that it came from irritation that these owners had to step up and manage their dogs.
Like a grumpy parent when someone asks them to stop letting their toddler rampage through a restaurant.

They had to keep their dogs on a lead and therefore probably had to undertake more exercise themselves than they wanted.

I have no problem with dogs being off lead but far too many are when their owners can't control them, which is entitled and often lazy.

There isn't a hierarchy of public space rights with dogs at the top of the animal pyramid.

It also seems that is very difficult for people who have no experience of walking cats to listen to those who have.
My cat was less reactive walking than my dog is. It may not be the norm but it is perfectly possible.
He enjoyed interacting and accepting strokes, which he regarded as his due. He liked sniffing the grass.
Cats like all animals including humans have different personalities within some species characteristics.

I agree with this.

@PollyRoulson

Leash reactivity is caused by several factors most of which can be avoided if the dogs are trained correctly.

1. Puppy greetings allowing the dog to meet every dog they pass will increase the chance of leash reactivity at a later date. Puppies need to be taught to focus on owners and not 100% on dogs.

1. Frustration causes leash aggression often the dog wanting to meet the other dog and becoming frustrated when they cant. Point 1 can help prevent this and also conditioning to focus on alternative behaviour to the greeting

1. Fear can cause leash aggression and the dog being put too close to a trigger so they react - this is a simple one to solve keep the dog underthreshold and a greater distance to the trigger.

In all cases training would be needed away from dogs (so a leased area is great as you can work easier at a distance you can control)

I am not in this for a fight and think you misunderstood my previous comment. I did mean educated caring owners, we all know that not all of them are.

Also as an aside all dogs will be better off not playing fetch tbh. the injuries and adrenalin rush caused by fetch is not to be recommended. Hunting scenting games would be much better and incidentally help with any chasing prey drive. Fetch would not.

Sits back hard hat on ready for the abuse

I think you have good points, but people run into problems when they rescue a dog that already has leash reactivity so it’s too late for puppy training and hard (but not impossible) to retrain so lots of people don’t bother. Also, I find that training my dog at threshold distance from other dogs to build a positive association works really well on pavements but is almost impossible when we are approached by off lead (and out of control dogs) as they get too close to him for him to learn and I can’t control this. I try to walk in quiet areas but even these sometimes have off lead dogs (especially in lockdown). I could just stick to pavements but on balance I think it’s better for my dog to run in fields and woods and deal with reactivity on the rare occasion we see a dog than to just stick to pavements which he doesn’t really like. I agree about fetch. A long line is useful because it allows me to hold the dog while throwing the toy, then I release my dog when the toy lands so he doesn’t know where it is and has to sniff around finding it. Better for his joints and more engaging for him to search for it. I also understood your comment that people took offence to to mean that there are always ways for caring intelligent owners to overcome problems and letting your dog run off lead not under control isn’t the only solution to some problems. Not that you were calling everyone that doesn’t agree with you unintelligent etc.

I am highly doubtful that the attitudes encountered sometimes walking our cat from some dog owners was based on concerns for our cat.

If you want a full list of my concerns, roughly in the hierarchy in which they concern me

A) the cat / rabbit could be injured, or worse

B) the cat could fight back and the dog could get injured

C) vets bills after 5pm on Easter Sunday are punishingly expensive

D) in the case of the rabbit walker, the child owner was also there and would likely be traumatised as a result of their parents decision

E) the paperwork for the insurance claim would probably be horrendous.

It's not about the issue of needing to manage my dog, it's that I don't want animals to get injured in an unnecessary and horrifically expensive manner.

It's not even just about my dog - it's about all the other dogs in the park, and that even if 99.9% of dogs were perfectly trained and had no prey drive, it only needs one dog to chase for it to go horrifically wrong for the cat / rabbit.

If I saw a cat being walked on a lead in an area where you wouldn't expect to find an off lead dog (eg a residential street) then I'd see it, cross the road to avoid it, and carry on with my day. I'd consider it substantially less batshit than walking in a busy park that's full of off lead dogs.

Still cant get past the fact some twat was walking a rabbit.

@PollyRoulson

Leash reactivity is caused by several factors most of which can be avoided if the dogs are trained correctly.

1. Puppy greetings allowing the dog to meet every dog they pass will increase the chance of leash reactivity at a later date. Puppies need to be taught to focus on owners and not 100% on dogs.

1. Frustration causes leash aggression often the dog wanting to meet the other dog and becoming frustrated when they cant. Point 1 can help prevent this and also conditioning to focus on alternative behaviour to the greeting

1. Fear can cause leash aggression and the dog being put too close to a trigger so they react - this is a simple one to solve keep the dog underthreshold and a greater distance to the trigger.

In all cases training would be needed away from dogs (so a leased area is great as you can work easier at a distance you can control)

I am not in this for a fight and think you misunderstood my previous comment. I did mean educated caring owners, we all know that not all of them are.

Also as an aside all dogs will be better off not playing fetch tbh. the injuries and adrenalin rush caused by fetch is not to be recommended. Hunting scenting games would be much better and incidentally help with any chasing prey drive. Fetch would not.

Sits back hard hat on ready for the abuse

Those things are theoretically correct if you ignore the populations of rescue dogs, imported dogs and dogs with previous learning experiences of conflict with other dogs.

I dislike fetch for the repetitive strain injury risk it can pose but frankly think advocating on banning it in the basis of almost no evidence is unrealistic.

In short, your suggestions aren't particularly practical in real life.

You also haven't addressed any of the other points, or addressed any of the cat/rabbit welfare issues.

@Ipigglemustdie

Still cant get past the fact some twat was walking a rabbit.

I think nearly everyone has agreed that it’s moronic and not fair on the rabbit/is cruel. But if some twat is doing it, it’s still not ok for a dog to attack the rabbit and the dog could end up not only killing the rabbit, but injuring the rabbit’s owner (or making them worried it would injure them) so the dog would be dangerously out of control, and the owner would be breaking the law. So dogs must still be under control regardless of how natural it is for them to kill rabbits and how stupid it is to walk a rabbit around dogs.

Oh and dog owners can weigh up the risks for themselves and decide that seeing a rabbit or cat on a lead is unlikely so can decide to let their dog off on the assumption that there won’t be any cats or rabbits. But if there is one, the dog owner will still be to blame for not controlling their dog-the OP suggested that it wouldn’t be the dog owners fault if their dog injured the cat/rabbit which I disagree with as they are responsible for all their dog’s actions in public.

I didn't choose to walk my cat in very busy public parks but all of the issues you have listed OP come from dogs not being controlled.

A dog which may injure another animal in a horrific way shouldn't be put in a position where it can do so. The dogs owners need to be more responsible.
This dog could come across wild animals, a cat mooching around freely, small dc or other dogs.

It is simply victim blaming to suggest that the cat walker is the person who is being irresponsible rather than the person who has the animal who is going to cause injury or worse.

The cat walker is responsible for managing the behavior of the cat, the dog walker is responsible for managing the behavior of the dog.

@WiganNorthWest

Oh and dog owners can weigh up the risks for themselves and decide that seeing a rabbit or cat on a lead is unlikely so can decide to let their dog off on the assumption that there won’t be any cats or rabbits. But if there is one, the dog owner will still be to blame for not controlling their dog-the OP suggested that it wouldn’t be the dog owners fault if their dog injured the cat/rabbit which I disagree with as they are responsible for all their dog’s actions in public.

I don't disagree with you I'm generally but I think it's important to be clear that the owner is not responsible for the dog in all situations.

In circumstances where the dog is in the care of someone over the age of 16 - they are responsible, including dog walkers, neighbours, friends etc.

Veterinari I'll take theoretically correct points 2 and 3 can be used on the rescue dogs et al you mentioned too very successfully.

Cats should not be on leads
Rabbits should not be leads

all sorted now

@Ineedaneasteregg

I didn't choose to walk my cat in very busy public parks but all of the issues you have listed OP come from dogs not being controlled.

A dog which may injure another animal in a horrific way shouldn't be put in a position where it can do so. The dogs owners need to be more responsible.
This dog could come across wild animals, a cat mooching around freely, small dc or other dogs.

It is simply victim blaming to suggest that the cat walker is the person who is being irresponsible rather than the person who has the animal who is going to cause injury or worse.

The cat walker is responsible for managing the behavior of the cat, the dog walker is responsible for managing the behavior of the dog.

I've already spent time on this thread explaining that it is perfectly possible for an on lead dog to cause serious health and welfare problems to a restricted cat or rabbit.

You can ignore inconvenient facts if you like. It doesn't make them any more valid

@PollyRoulson

Veterinari I'll take theoretically correct points 2 and 3 can be used on the rescue dogs et al you mentioned too very successfully.

Cats should not be on leads
Rabbits should not be leads

all sorted now

I'm going to assume you don't have masses of clinical behaviour experience dealing with traumatised dogs if you think theoretically valid works in the real world.

I find reality more helpful than theory alone

Veterinari I can only dream of having your level of knowledge but will keep plugging away at it. I am sure your posts will help me.

@PollyRoulson

Veterinari I can only dream of having your level of knowledge but will keep plugging away at it. I am sure your posts will help me.

Well I wouldn't assume universal applicability and a 'three point plan' will 'fix' all leash reactivity in all dogs regardless of genetics and prior experiences.

If that were the case most CCABs would be out of a job.

But then I wouldn't label owners who are struggling with those dogs as uncaring or unintelligent either.

“A dog which may injure another animal in a horrific way shouldn't be put in a position where it can do so. The dogs owners need to be more responsible.
This dog could come across wild animals, a cat mooching around freely, small dc or other dogs.”

But again...

The issue is that where there are dogs and small children, you don’t expect cats and rabbits tied to people unable to get away.

So you’ve based your assessment of whether your dog should be on lead on meeting dogs, small children and possibly cats or rabbits that are loose and far away.

I can't talk about rabbits, I don't know enough about them either way.

But my basic point stands that a dog on a short lead shouldn't pose a problem to a cat on lead , (at least it didn't cause my cat issues.)
Anymore than it causes a problem to another dog, person etc.

If the dog is unstable enough to cause a health and safety risk while on a lead it should be muzzled and a busy park is probably the wrong place for it.

It isn't up to other park users to protect themselves from dogs it has to be the dog owners responsibility to do this.
I say this as a dog owner.
Dogs have no special rights to park access over and above other people or animals.