People walking cats and rabbits on leads in parks

[AvocadosBeforeMortgages]

Utter fools. Do they not like their pets?

I've come across this at least 4 times now - people (all different!) walking cats and, in one case, a rabbit, on a lead.

In all cases, these are parks where dogs are allowed off lead and the vast majority are off lead. Including everything from ex-racing greyhounds to terriers.

I spoke to rabbit woman and pointed out the dangers. She said she'd just pick the rabbit up - while seemingly failing to account for the fact greyhounds can travel at 40mph and jump higher than she could possibly lift the rabbit.

Yesterday I saw this on-lead cat before my own dog did (a small miracle - from a distance I thought it was a puppy), and warned them my dog wasn't cat friendly. They then decided to stop sitting down in the park and instead FOLLOW US through the park.

Presumably when it goes wrong they'll be whining that the dog was out of control - but presumably they'd also be whining if they wandered out blindfolded onto a 70mph road and got run over. It's asking for trouble.

I'm not convinced cats or rabbits enjoy being walked - and surely the much safer / more pragmatic option would be to walk them somewhere where dogs aren't allowed to be off lead?

Let's pray this doesn't catch on as a trend

If a cat was terrified I don’t honestly think it would be possible to ‘walk’ it. I’ve no experience of walking in a park but certainly at the vet a scared cat means crouching in an inaccessible corner with claws ready to make mincemeat of anything that comes near. I honestly don’t think you can force a cat to do anything it doesn’t want to! I haven’t personally seen any cats or bunnies on leads, is this a city thing?

@anyoldtime

Been in the same position frequently! If an owner has such an out of control dog it should be on a lead at all times!

Far too often owners allow their dogs to come bounding over to myself or my children and even to jump up! My DS (4yo now) has been knocked over and it makes me furious! Now if a dog attempts to jump up I give it a strong kick. I don't care if the dog is "just being friendly", my children and myself take priority over an out of control dog!

My cat when walked wasn't bothered by dogs, dogs were much more bothered by him.
He wasn't remotely terrified or even concerned by them.
He regards dogs as very inferior beings quite beneath him.
If I felt the dog owner didn't have control over their animal I would pick my cat up.
But for my peace of mind not my cat's.

@anyoldtime

Put your bloody dog on a lead around people at ALL TIMES. No dogs should even be off lead where there are people esp children around ever

This.

I was out walking in a local park with my DC. My DC is terrified of unleashed dogs (following a bad experience). A small dog ran over to us. It was excited and jumped up on us. My DC went to pieces. I called to the owner to call her fog over. She came over huffing and puffing that her fog wouldn’t hurt us. She called the dog numerous times while the dog completely ignored her. My DC was crying, the dog was getting more hyper and the woman was offended although clearly had no control over the dog.
FWIW I don’t think the dog would have hurt us. But we didn’t know that with any certainty.

My DC has not gone back to that area of the park since. So is it more important for dogs or people to be able to use parks?

On another occasion in the same park I saw a dog walk past with their ow er holding a squirrel in its mouth. The owner was unable to get the dog to release the squirrel from its teeth. The squirrel wasn’t fully dead and the dog was shaking it in its mouth. I don’t know how or if she managed to free the squirrel or did she have to kill it fully herself. It was awful to witness and again it was preventable if the dog had been on a lead.

And all cats should be indoors too I expect?

[quote cheesecakecravings]@anyoldtime

Been in the same position frequently! If an owner has such an out of control dog it should be on a lead at all times!

Far too often owners allow their dogs to come bounding over to myself or my children and even to jump up! My DS (4yo now) has been knocked over and it makes me furious! Now if a dog attempts to jump up I give it a strong kick. I don't care if the dog is "just being friendly", my children and myself take priority over an out of control dog![/quote]
Lovely.

And that is relevant to the thread how?

This is one of the scariest and most depressing threads I have ever read, for multiple reasons.

Dogs are predatory animals, just like cats.
I am so fucking sick and tired of hearing people say ‘well if your dog will chase birds/cats/rabbits etc it must stay on lead forever as it is badly trained and has no recall’
Dogs are predators.
I don’t understand why people seem to think hunting in dogs is some awful, horrendous sign of a dangerous, bloodthirsty temperament and abnormal.
It’s not.
It’s unpalatable in human society granted but they are predatory animals.
Most will chase small animals if the opportunity presents itself and some will kill them.
Those who have dogs who will never chase small animals or always 100% recall away from small animals have dogs with low prey drive.
It’s as simple as that, it’s not that you have superior dog training skills, you just have a low prey drive dog!
The vast majority of dogs will chase small animals if the opportunity presents itself and those who think all, or even most dogs can be trained not to are utterly deluded.
Obviously, responsible owners will not have dogs loose where they expect sheep, deer, lots of wild rabbits etc to be but the reality is should a rabbit pop up most dogs, even if they have always been well trained and had excellent prior recall, will chase.
It’s naive to think they won’t.

No one, would ever expect to see a leashed rabbit or cat in a park where lots of dogs are walked.
You’d assume people would be intelligent enough not to be so bloody stupid.

To the above, lots of people will say the dog should never be off the lead then.
Except that keeping dogs is leashed is known to cause problems like leash reactivity because the lead stops normal dog behaviour and interaction.
For some dogs, the amount of exercise they require could not be easily be provided on a lead.
Unless behavioural problems like non existent recall, human aggression and dog aggression exist dogs should be given regular time off leash.

Rabbits are prey animals, I have had rabbits before and it wouldn’t even enter my head to be so cruel and selfish and irresponsible to take a rabbit for a walk where dogs are likely to be.

If any rabbit owners, or cat owners but rabbit especially, think a dog owner will be able to stop most dogs chasing after a rabbit you are absolutely, completely and utterly deluded.

And even if the dog is on lead, it makes no difference whatsoever.
You can bet that leashed dog is going to go stiff, stare at the rabbit, lunge, whine etc and the rabbit will be absolutely petrified.

There’s a good chance the rabbit will try and run and be hit with the end of leash which in a rabbit is likely to result in a spine fracture.

Rabbits can die from stress.

Many rabbit owners will tell you of their rabbits that died after a fox was staring at them through their hutch unable to get in.

Pet stores that have rabbits like PAH and Jollyes have signs up telling dog owners not to let their dogs near the rabbits and guinea pigs as they can die of stress.

But dog owners are at fault?!

No, you do not take rabbits for walks.
It’s cruel.

I partly think you’re right, it seems cruel to the cat/ rabbit to be walking it on a leaf in an area where dogs are off the lead.

However, on the other hand I would say if a dog has an instinct to chase prey and doesn’t have good enough recall them it shouldn’t be off-lead in a public park. What if it saw a wild squirrel or rabbit or a domestic cat got into the park? What if it decided to go for a puppy or a smaller dog? Dogs should be on-lead unless they are used to being around smaller animals and have good enough recall that they can be called back by their owners if they do see a smaller animal which takes their interest without chasing or catching it.

@BillyIsMyBunny

I partly think you’re right, it seems cruel to the cat/ rabbit to be walking it on a leaf in an area where dogs are off the lead.

However, on the other hand I would say if a dog has an instinct to chase prey and doesn’t have good enough recall them it shouldn’t be off-lead in a public park. What if it saw a wild squirrel or rabbit or a domestic cat got into the park? What if it decided to go for a puppy or a smaller dog? Dogs should be on-lead unless they are used to being around smaller animals and have good enough recall that they can be called back by their owners if they do see a smaller animal which takes their interest without chasing or catching it.

Do you also think all cats should be kept indoors until they learn not to catch mice?

However, on the other hand I would say if a dog has an instinct to chase prey and doesn’t have good enough recall them it shouldn’t be off-lead in a public park
But this is the vast majority of dogs.
Predatory animals chase prey!
What if it saw a wild squirrel or rabbit or a domestic cat got into the park?
Your average public park may have a few squirrels but aside from that it’s usually fairly bare.
Responsible people will leash if an area is absolutely heaving with squirrels or rabbits.
Or an area with deer or sheep, but if you can’t let a dog run freely in a large area that is mostly grass and largely devoid of small furries, where can you?
What if it decided to go for a puppy or a smaller dog?
This would come under dog aggression. Dogs should be on-lead unless they are used to being around smaller animals and have good enough recall that they can be called back by their owners if they do see a smaller animal which takes their interest without chasing or catching it
This is a very small percentage of dogs.

I do wonder if the same people who have an issue with dogs chasing squirrels (usually unsuccessfully) have the same issue with cats hunting and more successfully killing wild birds and mice etc.

@MrsMackesy

I agree that dogs should be allowed to runaround in the countryside Not at the moment, they shouldn't, and caution should be exercised at all times. At the moment they should be on leads, especially because of ground-nesting birds and lambs. At all times there are sheep, cows - who can and do injure or kill dogs and their owners - and calves, deer and their fawns and other wildlife and stock. Hares are in particular danger.

Living in the countryside I have witnessed first hand what can happen if irresponsible dog owners treat it as a free for all. Our dogs have been brought up alongside wildlife and stock on a daily basis - not just the occasional run at the weekend or bank holiday - and even we have to be careful.

Absolutely. But no all countryside is the same. Where I am the farms are predominantly arable and there are areas at the edges of field where dogs can safely be offlead. Also we are blessed with acres of woodland. Certain areas are lead only to protect nesting birds, and there are large areas where dogs can be off lead all year round and are designated as such.The deer are used to dogs and can easily outrun them.

The deer are used to dogs and can easily outrun them
We have farmed and wild deer. Dogs should not be allowed to chase deer, causing fear and stress, ever but especially when pregnant, nursing or very young. Fawns are left alone in long grass, can be stumbled upon by the unwary and are particularly vulnerable to dogs. Out of control off lead dogs in the countryside can and do catch and injure or kill adult deer, unfortunately.

There’s chasing and there’s chasing though... my current one will chase squirrels.

That consists of him spotting a squirrel already in motion about 30ft away - and it’s up a tree before he’s even half that distance away.

Rabbits he doesn’t even get as close as that.

So I mean, in theory he’s chasing them but as soon as they disappear he loses interest (I haven’t tried recalling him from them yet, I’ve only had him 5 weeks) so I can’t see it being a major stress for them.

Deer, he hasn’t seen yet and isn’t hugely likely to.

Just to add for information, adult deer can and do injure and kill off lead dogs. Attacks are rare and usually in defence to protect young or during the Autumn rut (mating season).

Yes, sorry I wasn’t clear. It depends upon the dog. Ours don’t chase deer. If they did then they would stay on lead.

I don’t think cats should be kept indoors until they learn not to catch mice but I wouldn’t take a cat off lead to a public place either. I’m also definitely not saying dogs should be kept indoors but that they shouldn’t be kept off lead in busy public areas if they don’t have good recall. By all means let the dog off lead in your garden or other private land or in the middle of nowhere but the park isn’t the place for an unpredictable dog. If you don’t live somewhere with access to private land then don’t get a species of dog with a high prey drive; I don’t understand why people in an urban town/ city with no private outdoor space would get a breed which needs regular time off lead but which also has a high prey drive and likely won’t have good recall.

I think it's a bit odd to walk a cat or a rabbit on a lead, and obviously not sensible in a place where irresponsible owners are clearly not in control of their dogs.

I do think that all dogs should be on leads, though. I'm really fed up of out-of-control animals jumping up and putting their muddy paws all over me. And the owners just standing there saying, oh don't worry, he's friendly. I don't care if your dog is fucking friendly, I don't want him all over me.

If you know that your dog is likely to be aggressive towards other animals, then please keep it on a lead.

I love my rabbits, I would never put them through the stress and dangers of being on a leash in a public place. Even without the dog or predator danger (foxes hide in bushes too), they have a habit of eating anything green around them, including plants that could well be toxic or plants which may have been treated with pesticides or weed killer.

I put my childhood rabbit on a lead once, in my garden, he saw something that startled him, went into reverse, escaped the harness in seconds and headed for the end of the garden. I had to throw myself in front of him to catch him.

I would never do that to my current rabbits, especially my boy who is skittish even in his home where he's comfortable and hates being touched.

A lot of rabbit rescues and rabbit welfare recommendations are to NOT walk your rabbits on leashes, especially not in public places. If you do decide to do it, it should be in an enclosed safe area such as a garden and the rabbit on a very long extended leash as any pressure on it like you would a dog and they could easily panic thinking a predator has caught them.

@BigWolfLittleWolf

However, on the other hand I would say if a dog has an instinct to chase prey and doesn’t have good enough recall them it shouldn’t be off-lead in a public park But this is the vast majority of dogs. Predatory animals chase prey! What if it saw a wild squirrel or rabbit or a domestic cat got into the park? Your average public park may have a few squirrels but aside from that it’s usually fairly bare. Responsible people will leash if an area is absolutely heaving with squirrels or rabbits. Or an area with deer or sheep, but if you can’t let a dog run freely in a large area that is mostly grass and largely devoid of small furries, where can you? What if it decided to go for a puppy or a smaller dog? This would come under dog aggression. Dogs should be on-lead unless they are used to being around smaller animals and have good enough recall that they can be called back by their owners if they do see a smaller animal which takes their interest without chasing or catching it This is a very small percentage of dogs.

So what if only a small proportion of dogs can be recalled from chasing wildlife? My opinion is that only this small proportion of dogs should be allowed off lead in areas where they may be out of control and a danger to themselves and other animals. All other dogs should be on leads. I’m sure the law will never change but I know it’s an opinion lots of people share. Too many deer, sheep and other animals get terrorised by out of control dogs and I think it’s a shame that having an out of control dog is so acceptable. I think it’s up to humans to manage dogs prey drive. I have a dog that I always keep on a lead or long line unless in a secure dog exercise field (mainly due to dog reactivity and poor recall) and I really don’t think his life is poorer for it. He get plenty of exercise and has the freedom to run up to 15m away from me on a long line and I know he’s safe and won’t chase wildlife into roads and livestock and wildlife are safe. I personally don’t have cats because I worry about the danger of them being hit by cars and killing birds but that is down to personal choice.

@BillyIsMyBunny

I don’t think cats should be kept indoors until they learn not to catch mice but I wouldn’t take a cat off lead to a public place either. I’m also definitely not saying dogs should be kept indoors but that they shouldn’t be kept off lead in busy public areas if they don’t have good recall. By all means let the dog off lead in your garden or other private land or in the middle of nowhere but the park isn’t the place for an unpredictable dog. If you don’t live somewhere with access to private land then don’t get a species of dog with a high prey drive; I don’t understand why people in an urban town/ city with no private outdoor space would get a breed which needs regular time off lead but which also has a high prey drive and likely won’t have good recall.

Why are you equating a dog that chases squirrels or rabbits as being 'unpredictable' I'd argue that is a totally predictable and species-appropriate behaviour.

Why do you criticise that behaviour but not the behaviour of cats catching mice? How is it different?

It seems that often people seem to hold dogs to arbitrary and unrealistic standards. Yes all dogs should be trained and have good recall and good manners but expecting perfect behaviour in exceptional circumstances is unrealistic - most people can't achieve that in their own behaviour.

If you don’t live somewhere with access to private land then don’t get a species of dog with a high prey drive; I don’t understand why people in an urban town/ city with no private outdoor space would get a breed which needs regular time off lead but which also has a high prey drive and likely won’t have good recall.

My dog - a terrier cross with a prey drive - quite literally came with my old flat. A little inner London flat, with a "no pets" clause in the contract. It's a long story, but suffice to say that there wasn't a huge amount of choice in the matter. He does need off lead exercise, and he has a prey drive. Like most people, I'm just muddling through life and trying to make the best of things.

He's got a prey drive, so there's no way he'd be off lead somewhere that might plausibly contain livestock - which is one reason why we don't walk in the countryside. Occasionally, when visiting family, we have cause to walk in their local park, which has a fenced deer section. We steer well clear of the deer because I wouldn't trust him.

In our urban locality he's on a lead in the streets because it's reasonable to expect you might see a cat (along with myriad other dangers).

In our local urban park, you never see cats - apart from the ones some idiot has taken in on a lead - because they don't choose to go there voluntarily!

He's allowed to chase grey squirrels because
A) they do a lot of damage to trees and are culled periodically by government agencies
B) he never catches them
I'd take the same attitude to wild rabbits (which are legally shot by farmers as they destroy crops) but there aren't any locally. Both are invasive, non-native species which damage the ecosystem.

I'd actually find it much HARDER to have a dog with a prey drive that needs off lead exercise in a rural area - because you never know where there might be livestock. Urban parks, on the other hand, quite predictable have no livestock, which is exactly what I need!

It seems that often people seem to hold dogs to arbitrary and unrealistic standards. Yes all dogs should be trained and have good recall and good manners but expecting perfect behaviour in exceptional circumstances is unrealistic - most people can't achieve that in their own behaviour.

Agreed.

People often seem to forget that adult dogs have the cognition of a 2-3 year old child.

If any parent can honestly say their 2-3 year old child always behaves perfectly and has never done something they know full well is naughty, then they have an exceptionally compliant child.

The reality is that both dogs and small children sometimes do something naughty - be it nicking chocolate buttons or running off when they shouldn't.

Perfection is unachievable. Even guide dogs have off days - I once saw one barking at a chihuahua on the other side of the pedestrian crossing.

@Veterinari of course it’s predictable and species appropriate that an animal with a high prey drive will chase prey. I think she meant that the dog is unpredictable because it won’t reliably return to its owner and it’s not possible to predict when it will see a prey animal and chase.
I agree that we can’t expect all dogs not to chase animals, so we as owners have a responsibility to manage the prey drive and keep wildlife and livestock/other animals safe from the predators we have artificially introduced into their environment. This means keeping dogs on leads any time they may be able to chase/worry other animals (and people).
Personally I don’t have cats because I don’t agree with them killing birds and I think free roaming cats have an unacceptably high risk of being run over in some areas, and keeping cats indoors may not be stimulating enough for them. That’s my choice though and I understand that others aren’t worried about cars or the risk to wildlife. I agree though, that if you are ok with cats killing wildlife you should also be ok with dogs killing wildlife (including seals-which there was public outrage over).

It seems that often people seem to hold dogs to arbitrary and unrealistic standards

I don't hold dogs to any particular standards at all. They're dogs, and will naturally behave as such.

I do expect dog owners to manage their dogs' behaviour appropriately, which means not allowing them to cause bother for other people or other animals.

Same with small children. I wouldn't expect a 2yo to show much self control, but I would expect a responsible parent to manage that child's behaviour in such a way that minimised any disturbance to others.

Actually a cat and dog killing another animal is not quite the same. In law a dog is fully domesticated, whilst a cat is only semi domesticated. Thus the standards of behaviour which the law expects from dog and owner are different. The presumption is that a dog can be trained and controlled and a cat can not because they’re not fully domesticated. It’s not the dogs fault it’s up to the owner to choose an appropriate pet and train or modify behaviour. If your dog unexpectedly does something or slips it’s lead, runs off out the care etc it’s an accident if you’re aware of a problem and do nothing that’s not an accident. Many people keep working dogs in the countryside, they’re incredibly well trained and they do their job, and get plenty of exercise. The problem is when working dogs don’t have any work to do..