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Just don’t know what to do….spinning/tail chasing collie pup…..

86 replies

HornsOfADilemma01 · 02/03/2021 14:04

Hi Mumsnetters

I’m hoping that some clever person on here might have some experience of a similar problem, or have some tips/advice, because we’re fast running out of ways to help our gorgeous boy. Apologies in advance, this is long because I wanted to cover all bases.

So, a bit of background; DPup lives with me, my DP, a 4 year old (slightly spoiled) ShihPoo (shih tzu/poodle cross), and two lazy, friendly, large breed house cats. DP & I are experienced dog owners, having had a number of dogs in the past. Our old collie died (aged 14) early 2020 and he left a big hole in our lives. My DP, who has some physical limitations, works alone in his own shop and having a large-ish dog on the premises gives him security and peace of mind (a little, yappy ShihPoo just doesn’t really have the same effect!).

With all that in mind, we considered a number of options to fill the hole in our lives left by our old collie. We initially wanted to re-home a rescue, so we contacted loads of rescue organisations across the country with no luck (most didn’t reply, others said no rehoming was taking place due to COVID). After thinking long and hard, the decision was made to purchase a puppy rather than try to continue in vain to find a suitable rescue dog.

We spent the summer looking for a suitable puppy, avoiding what were obviously back yard breeders and puppy farms, but it proved incredibly difficult. Puppies were being snapped up quickly, even for stupidly inflated prices. Eventually, we found DPup, a smooth coated male collie, and there followed lengthy email, phone & video conversations with the breeder. We saw photos of the father (very distinctive markings which our pup shares), and DPup was still with his mother and litter mates in what looked to be a private home, so it all seemed legit and we decided to purchase him.

When we collected DPup, all was not as ‘legit’ as it had originally seemed….it was definitely a private home, the mother was there and was clearly a family pet, but the puppies (about 8 of them) were brought in from a filthy kennel/pen outside and it was all very chaotic with the pups peeing, pooing and vomiting all over the place/each other, squabbling, yelping, jumping all over each other, etc. The pup we’d reserved was the quietest of the litter, but still alert, bright & healthy looking, and we thought this was a good sign in that he’d be a relatively laid back puppy. The breeder couldn’t find DPup’s microchip with her scanner (she found the chips in the other puppies), and she confessed that he hadn’t actually had his first vaccines (she’d originally had told us he had). We were annoyed, and almost ready to walk away without DPup, but there were (literally) people queuing outside to buy the puppies and we felt very pressured after so long searching for the right puppy.

So DPup is now approx 6 months old. He’s adorable with the sweetest nature and he’s super smart; he slept through the night from day 2 (from 11pm – 7:30am), he was house-trained after about a week (he pees and poos on command), he’s never really chewed anything he shouldn’t, he doesn’t mouth/nip, he learned sit/wait/leave/down very quickly, he knows loads of words, and he has good recall (although this isn’t 100% reliable). He’s walked for about an hour/day on a long lead, sometimes two walks/day. He’s never been left alone, other than overnight, when he sleeps in his crate in the kitchen next to our other dog. The other dog doesn’t really seem to like DPup (there’s occasionally teeth baring and warning body language when DPup tries to play, etc), but he tolerates him most of the time. Despite lockdown, DPup is quite well socialised, we expose him to new experiences wherever possible and he meets other dogs/puppies/people on a regular basis.

However, like many collies, he’s very highly strung, anxious, fearful and a total stress-head! About 6 weeks ago, he started to chase his tail and this quickly escalated into an obsessive/compulsive behaviour. We have no idea what first triggered the behaviour, it seemed to start completely out of the blue. He’ll spin frantically until he runs out of energy or he bumps into an immovable object. He seems to do it more when he’s stressed/tired/excited.

He’s very noise sensitive (which I understand is common in collies). So far, we’ve successfully desensitised him to a lot of previously scary (for him) noises, but he still has a real problem with phones (the tinny voice on the other end of the line) and any kind of raised voice (including laughter); these really trigger his spinning and we’ve so far failed to desensitise him to these.

However, whilst initially very scared, anxious and reactive, he does get used to most new things quite quickly with reassurance and positive reinforcement. The way he comes to terms happily/quickly with some things and is absolutely terrified of others completely baffles us, to be honest!

So, back to the main problem. The spinning. We’ve had him checked by the vet three times so far (in addition to health checks at both vaccine appointments). We’re not sure exactly how much of an examination he’s had due to the vet not letting us go in to the consulting room (COVID), but every check-up has resulted in a clean bill of health and a referral to a dog behaviourist. We’ve now consulted with three different dog behaviourists; two via telephone/zoom and one via a face-to-face session (an hour). All three suggested different ways to remedy the problem. We’ve also done loads of reading/research on how to stop the behaviour, but there are so many different methods out there that our brains are fried!

All of the behaviourists have, however, agreed that we really must nip this behaviour in the bud, as the longer is goes on the more entrenched it will become. We’ve been told; (by behaviourist one) to make a sudden noise to interrupt him when he starts spinning, but this seems to make him more anxious, (by behaviourist two) to distract him with a toy, but this is impossible because he goes into a trance-like state when spinning, and (by behaviourist three) to spray water at him to interrupt the spinning Hmm . However, none of these methods sit well with me; he’s not being “naughty”, he’s a stressed, anxious dog who’s dealing with things the only way he knows how. No right-minded person would punish a child with tics, or one who sucks their thumb, and – to me – this is similar.

We’ve also read various approaches online; we should ignore the behaviour and give positive reinforcement when it stops (this doesn’t work as he only stops when he bumps into something or he’s exhausted) / we should physically prevent him from reaching his tail by using, for example, a buster collar / we should use clicker training (but this seems to train him to spin even more!) / we should get him onto Prozac / we should have him PTS.

He’s off to the vets again today, this time for a blood test. We ideally would like him checked for levels of serotonin and dopamine (apparently an imbalance can lead to this kind of compulsive behaviour), but the test costs c.£1200. We simply can’t afford that at the moment (DP’s shop is closed as non-essential and I’m on a rubbish salary).

One thing that may be relevant is that DPup has major FOMO; he’s “on” all the time, rarely settles and doesn’t really nap (perhaps an hour a day, tops). He also never really settles down with a chew/antler/lick mat/stuffed Kong; he’ll have a lick/chew and then pace around, then go back for a chew, then pace again, and on and on. This inability to settle/be calm is something that we’re aware is likely a major contributing factor to the anxiety/spinning, but we’re finding it impossible to improve the situation. DPup also seems to have a sensitive stomach, often goes off his food for no apparent reason, has intermittent diarrhoea…..and the worst flatulence ever! We’re moving him onto a raw food diet at the moment, to see if he might have some kind of food allergy/intolerance.

Can anyone suggest the best way to help us to help our poor, stressed DPup? We’re at the end of our tether, and it’s fraying fast! To watch him spinning and chasing his tail is so upsetting and distressing, even more so because we don’t seem able to help him in any way.

OP posts:
ArcherDog · 02/03/2021 14:32

Can you interrupt him spinning? Clip a lead on and walk him forward, then give him a ‘settle/on your bed’ command and a chew?
Lickimats and kongs are good as licking is a calming gesture.

Sounds like to are on the right track with the desensitising of nosies etc, and it’s sometimes takes a while for an existing dog to relax and accept a new puppy.

HornsOfADilemma01 · 02/03/2021 14:51

@ArcherDog

Can you interrupt him spinning? Clip a lead on and walk him forward, then give him a ‘settle/on your bed’ command and a chew? Lickimats and kongs are good as licking is a calming gesture.

Sounds like to are on the right track with the desensitising of nosies etc, and it’s sometimes takes a while for an existing dog to relax and accept a new puppy.

Hi @ArcherDog, thank you for replying. I forgot to mention (in my essay!) that we've tried that. Encouraging forward movement doesn't seem to change the behaviour. In fact, my DP had to bring DPup home early from his walk this morning because he was spinning on the end of the lead and simply wouldn't stop. The spinning does seem to be better on some days than others, but it's been particularly bad since the weekend (no obvious trigger).

Also, DPup does know the "settle" command, and he will lie down for it.....but then he's pacing around again seconds later, ignoring any lickimat/kong/snuffle mat/chew, etc, we've given him.

OP posts:
DidYouTouchMyDrumKit · 02/03/2021 15:00

I think you need to look at ways to prevent this behaviour as far as you can - I'm not sure how though! But basically something that stops him being able to spin.

You sound like you're doing everything you can - some collies can be like this though - very highly strung

How often does he do it and for how long? What would he do if you physically intervened and stopped him?

HornsOfADilemma01 · 02/03/2021 15:01

Sorry, I keep thinking about bits of info! We have a slightly weird set-up in that DPup spends most of the daytime in the (currently closed) shop with DP or else in the kitchen with one or both of us. This is mainly because of the layout of the house (the lounge is upstairs) and the fact that I WFH in the room next to the lounge. So he only really comes upstairs to the lounge in the evenings.

He doesn't normally spin when were all sat relaxing in the lounge. He tends to mooch around for an hour then he flops down for a (very short) nap before getting up and mooching around again. However, since the weekend, he's been spinning in the lounge so much so that he kept hurting himself on the furniture and DP took him into the kitchen where there's more clear space.

OP posts:
MrsVeryTired · 02/03/2021 15:08

I know you said you've tried several behaviourists but Absolute Dogs are meant to be really fantastic, there is also a FB support group called NBN Dog Owners (for Naughty but Nice dogs) where you can ask for advice and people who have gone through similar give advice. They are very into promoting calm (which your pup sounds like he needs).

ClaudiaWankleman · 02/03/2021 15:09

What would happen if you picked him up/ took hold of his tail and gently took it out of his mouth?

Could you try a cone collar to break the habit? If he isn't able to grab his tail he may find another, more appropriate way of dealing with things.

HornsOfADilemma01 · 02/03/2021 15:13

@DidYouTouchMyDrumKit

I think you need to look at ways to prevent this behaviour as far as you can - I'm not sure how though! But basically something that stops him being able to spin.

You sound like you're doing everything you can - some collies can be like this though - very highly strung

How often does he do it and for how long? What would he do if you physically intervened and stopped him?

I completely agree, @DidYouTouchMyDrumKit. It's so distressing for all of us Sad. The spinning is unpredictable, sometimes he's pretty chilled-out, but the spinning is always his go-to behaviour. Then other times (yesterday, for example) he was spinning furiously most of the day, even at times when he normally doesn't spin (e.g. in the lounge last night).

If I had to give a (conservative) estimate, on a good day I'd say he spends approx 20% of his waking hours either spinning or staring at his tail in preparation for spinning. On a bad day, that ramps up to about 40%.

He's a very focussed dog, prone to obsessive behaviour. He used to be completely fixated on tennis balls, typical collie 100% concentration, but the behaviourists all suggested that we not let him play with tennis balls as they would encourage the obsessive tendencies. If he happens to get hold of a ball now, he loses the plot and spins like mad.

OP posts:
SirSniffsAlot · 02/03/2021 15:15

The biggest thing that stands out for me is a poor luck in behaviourist. I'm really sorry because I don't mean that as a 'dig' but 2/3 suggested some kind of aversion training - which is not only terrible advice for a nervous dog but suggests they see this as a training issue, not an emotional one. That's rubbish of them.

The other suggested distraction but seems to have failed to form that into an actionable plan that works. Plus, unless there's more information there, doesn't appear to have focussed on the dog's emotional state at all :(

The other thing that stand out from your post is that, in your well meaning desperation to help this dog, you seem to have already tried lots of things in a short space of time. 3 vet checks, 3 behaviourists, 3 different approaches, a change of food etc. I get it. You love your dog, you want him to be happy and you are afraid that this is the start of a lifetime of misery. Your intentions are good and kind and noble, but I wonder if this has been a lot for this nervous young dog to handle?

I think if this were my dog I would be trying to come at this from the angle of the dog's emotional welfare, rather than worry about the behaviour specifically.

That's going to be more complex to address and require much more info than is here but some things I would be looking at:

  1. What can I do to reduce the stress level in this dog? For example, you talked a bit about desensitisation and the dog getting used to things but I wonder if that itself might be stressing him out? Whilst I acknoledge the role socialisation/habituation plays in bringing up a puppy I do think it's become like some holy grail that everyone things must be done ad nauseum or they have failed. I think it is easy to push a young dog too far, too fast because of a fear of missing "the window". Could that be happening here?

Lots of dogs can find their owners actions to be stressful. It sounds mean but I think it's true. I know that my own dog gets more fuss from household members than he'd like. He's cute and cuddly and everyone is forever interupting him to fuss him. I've been making a point of stopping them all, because although he tolerates it, close watching of his face reveals he doesn't really relish it. So it needs to reduce.

  1. What activities does the dog enjoy and seem to help calm him? Does gentle training do this? Does keeping walks shorter do this? Or do longer, sniffier walks do this? Does playing calming music help at all? Does the dog enjoy fuss or prefer to be left in peace?

Does he have a routine where he knows, for sure, what is going to happen and when? My own dog has learned that nothing exciting ever happens in an afternoon. All walks are done and food is not for hours. So, over time, he has settled into an afternoon snooze. That takes time to establish and he didn't really 'get it' until he was 18 months or more old. But it is clearly valuable to him because he now relaxes totally and utterly between about 1pm and 4pm. Ditto the evenings when we're watching the telly. Does your have times of day he can rely on what's going to happen? e.g. walks at a similar time of day, food at a similar time etc.

  1. What happens immediately prior to a spinning session? Really look closely for the tiniest of details. Does he catch the eye of the other
dog? If the other dog is present, what is their own body language like? Is it when no one's looking at him? Or when someone is? Time of day? Noises outside? Maybe even set up a video camera at times when you know it might happen. It can help to watch it back to spot things you might not have seen in the moment. Does he look at you before he spins? Does he deliberately not look?

Based on everything you said, I think I'd be looking at how I could scale back, slow down and make life easier for this young nervous pup while also trying to find a pattern in the spinning behaviour that could indicate what he's getting from it or what he's trying to avoid or cope with via it.

HornsOfADilemma01 · 02/03/2021 15:18

@MrsVeryTired

I know you said you've tried several behaviourists but Absolute Dogs are meant to be really fantastic, there is also a FB support group called NBN Dog Owners (for Naughty but Nice dogs) where you can ask for advice and people who have gone through similar give advice. They are very into promoting calm (which your pup sounds like he needs).
@MrsVeryTired...yep, we're watching all of the AbsoluteDogs videos and doing Sexier Than A Squirrel. Me & DP have joined loads of dog training/behaviour FB groups, including NBN Dog Owners. We live in a generally calm house (other than the ShihPoo being a bit antsy with DPup), no children, few visitors, etc. DPup should be the most chilled out puppy.
OP posts:
HornsOfADilemma01 · 02/03/2021 15:23

@ClaudiaWankleman

What would happen if you picked him up/ took hold of his tail and gently took it out of his mouth?

Could you try a cone collar to break the habit? If he isn't able to grab his tail he may find another, more appropriate way of dealing with things.

@ClaudiaWankleman, unfortunately we can't pick him up when he starts spinning. DP has physical limitations (and also broke his finger falling over in the snow last month) plus DPup is quite big and heavy. I have a neck problem which means i shouldn't be lifting anything heavy. And anyway, he spins so fiercely that we really would risk injury to ourselves if we tried to physically intervene. We have tried a cone collar (and an inflatable one) but they both had no effect whatsoever.
OP posts:
PollyRoulson · 02/03/2021 15:35
  1. You did not see qualified behaviourists - all the advice given is incorrect and will cause more spinning.
  1. You need a detailed vet check, full bloods, check anal glands check, allergiy testing maybe at the very least. Your vet should also be able to recommend a qualified behaviourist
  1. You MUST get qualified behaviourist help with this. You have an incredibly stressed out dog and NOONE on the internet can help you with this unless they are qualified (already some of the advice you have been given will make things worse.
  1. You are not looking at stopping the behaviour (well you are) you are looking at altering the emotional state that is making the dog feel the need to spin. So picking up will make things way worse and you could get bitten. Distraction may work for a short time but is only a stop gap you need to get the emotional state looked at.
  1. If you want to give an rough area I can recommend a behaviourist or the bonus of covid is that behaviourists are working on zoom and you have the choice of the entire country. A behavourist will not have to see the behaviour in rl to give correct advice, a detailed history and vet check will be more than enough.

Good luck I hope you can get your dog into a happier state asap.

billybagpuss · 02/03/2021 15:51

To build on @SirSniffsAlot post, I agree you’re trying lots without really giving time for it to sink in.

I am 3 years into a stressy collie. She does the tail thing when she’s excited so we try and play with her and start giving butt scratches which she loves. And does calm her down.

The best thing I think for you to try is staying calm. Collies like jobs, ours would set off when there was someone at the door for example, so she has her bed and the bottom step of the stairs as her safe spots. So the door goes we say ‘on your step’ and she gets treats, scatter fed on her step. This will not work immediately for some time, start by making the space safe when he is calm and focused, then when he goes skits, stop him if you can, if not when he stops give him the command on your step and then loads of fuss and scatter feeding. You are already starting to recognise his triggers, so if one of those is about to happen, get him on the step (or wherever you chose) and scatter feed beforehand so he feels safe.

I hardly give any breakfast or tea as all her food comes in scatter feeding during the day

Tennis balls are like a shot of cocain, billypup is much calmer without them.

Make your walks shorter but play lots of focus games. We play where’s billypup so she has to sit and make eye contact to get a biscuit, you then just move 90* and do the same thing. Then play go find with the food we’ve trained this to a whistle. Give his dinner in a scatter ball rather than his bowl, we have a pineapple it’s great it takes her ages. Lots of focusing on you.

Good luck, you may live in a calm house, but your ball of fluff hasn’t worked that out yet, you need to work that through with him.

Fourleafclover93 · 02/03/2021 15:53

Has he possibly started doing this because he's bored while at work with you or your partner and its just continued in the house?

My collie started a very annoying obsessive behaviour after he got neutered (I'd been hardly walking him for a week and took toys off him because the vet advised me to in order to keep him calm).

I contacted the breeder who runs dog training classes and has owned collies for over 40 years and she told me the behaviour was a way to entertain himself. She said that one of her own dogs was biting his tail and chasing it like yours.

She advised me to train or play with him to distract him but the behaviour started again as soon as I stopped. She then suggested I get a plastic bottle full of stones and to shake it and say no when the behaviour started. It worked great and when he occasionally does it now I only need to pick up the bottle and it stops what he's doing.

I know you said your dog is frightened of noise so this might not work but something similar?

LaurieSchafferIsAllBitterNow · 02/03/2021 15:57

Have you tried a DAP collar...we use an adaptil one. We have an insecure, super vigilant, needy neurotic GSD and the difference with the collar on is marked

He's been wearing them for three months and the first month it was noticeable that he was reverting to being a good deal more anxious as the end of the month approached, this one going on now will be his fourth and he has been pretty steady the whole month with only a small amount of reversion in his behaviour.

I'd say it has helped him a good deal, he chooses to settle in his own space and is not constantly looking for reassurance.

BlackSabbath · 02/03/2021 16:06

Has he had his anal glands checked? Has he been wormed regularly? Anything else back there could be causing pain?

What happens after he's been spinning? Does he get lots of fuss and 'rewarded' with affection and cuddles? Told hes a good oy etc If? If so he could have learned that chasing his tail = lots of attention and love, which would obviously reinforce the behaviour

TakeMeToKernow · 02/03/2021 16:13

After you spent so long try trying to find pup, I imagine this suggestion wont suit you... but would you consider rehoming your DPup to a more active family? You’re so right that collies are often “on” all the time and as you describe, our collies wouldn’t just settle quietly with a chew. More exercise and mental stimulation was my first thought as I started reading your post. We only had collies while we had a farm and the one collie I know who has been kept as a “house dog” has led a miserable existence.

LittleBoPeep95 · 02/03/2021 16:17

he’ll have a lick/chew and then pace around, then go back for a chew, then pace again, and on and on

He sounds bored. How much excersise and mental stimulation is he getting? If working dogs don't have a job they often go 'self employed' so to speak.

ArcherDog · 02/03/2021 16:21

@TakeMeToKernow

After you spent so long try trying to find pup, I imagine this suggestion wont suit you... but would you consider rehoming your DPup to a more active family? You’re so right that collies are often “on” all the time and as you describe, our collies wouldn’t just settle quietly with a chew. More exercise and mental stimulation was my first thought as I started reading your post. We only had collies while we had a farm and the one collie I know who has been kept as a “house dog” has led a miserable existence.
Plenty of collies live perfectly happily in a house. As long as he is getting the appropriate amount of exercise/metal stimulation, it’s unlikely exercise is the trigger.
HornsOfADilemma01 · 02/03/2021 16:37

@SirSniffsAlot, many thanks for taking the time to write such a helpful reply.

Yes, we’ve had real problems getting hold of a behaviourist….most of them don’t reply or else take forever to respond, and some seem to be cashing in on the recent boom in puppy ownership by inflating their prices (one charging over £900 for an hour’s consultation!!). We simply cannot afford that at the moment, especially when there’s no guarantee that their methods will work/fit with our own lifestyle/ethics, etc.

I agree with you that aversion training is completely the wrong approach for such an anxious puppy. I also believe that this is an emotional problem and not a training issue (DPup is a real ‘one time learner’, he amazes me every day with how clever he is) and it seems so wrong to effectively punish him for this behaviour, which is clearly out of his control. The one trainer that my DP met face-to-face was kind, sensitive and seemed to be giving the right advice, but that advice was limited due to the length of the session (one hour). In fact, whilst she told DP that we need to nip the spinning in the bud, she didn’t give him any guidelines as to how to achieve that, and, although she offered online links to further training materials to back up the session, these were never sent and she’s ignoring my DP’s messages chasing them up.

I do completely understand what you mean about us possibly jumping from one method to another. Now I’m thinking about it, though, the spinning has been going on for longer than I initially said….it’s more like 8-9 weeks, definitely since before Christmas (we saw family on Christmas Day and I remember talking to them about it). The slow change of food to raw has only been the last two days, though.

I think there’s a bit of a disconnect in the way DP and I view the behaviour. He tends to spend more time with DPup than I do (he’s not working as his shop is currently closed and I work FT from home). DP tends to want to stop the behaviour (because it's driving him loopy!), whereas I’m more about an holistic approach (e.g. I’m the one who’s suggested the lack of sleep being a possible cause/exacerbator, I suggested we consider a more simple/basic diet, etc).

I used to keep thoroughbred horses, so I’m used to dealing with emotional/environmental problems that manifest in unwanted behaviours. The spinning is driving me loopy as well, though!

I'll answer your questions one by one:

  1. I’ll definitely have a think about what we can do to reduce DPup’s stress levels (I've been doing that anyway). With the desensitisation, we did it at his pace/as and when things cropped up/out of necessity. For example, he was terrified of being in the car, used to throw up/drool as soon as he got in, but we built up slowly from having some treats in the car to very short journeys, e.g. to the park for his walk, and he now can’t wait to leap into the car. He used to bark at the washing machine and tumble dryer, but we slowly encouraged him to get closer by offering treats/reassuring him and now he doesn’t even look at them, even when they're on a really noisy part of the wash/dry cycle. I don’t think we over-faced him or pushed him too quickly on this, and we were very sensitive to his nervousness, but we needed him to eventually be ok with the washing machine/tumble dryer, or else I’d have never got any laundry done Smile

We have no children in the house, and me & DP definitely don’t smother DPup with fuss, or force unwanted attention onto him. He’s never really calm enough or still long enough to be petted anyway, if you put your hand towards his head, he ducks away and grabs a toy wanting to play. The only time he occasionally seems to enjoy a fuss is when he’s on the settee with us of an evening, but that’s a very brief moment of calm and he’s off pacing/mooching again! When I think he’s getting over-stimulated, I try to bore DPup to sleep by not interacting with him (whilst still keeping an eye on him). That sometimes works, and he’ll flop down for a (very short!) snooze, but it’s not a reliable method of getting him to sleep at all, it probably works one in every five times and most of the time he just gets more and more worked up/tired, despite there being no external stimulation going on.

  1. He likes sniffing, but a snuffle mat only seems to calm him for a very short time. He does enjoy learning new things, he concentrates and gives undivided attention, and picks things up at lightening speed, but we simply can’t devote every minute of the day to actively training DPup (although we’re passively training and reinforcing previous training with him all the time, "sit", "leave", "toilet", etc).

DP tends to walk DPup, and he’s tried one long walk/several shorter walks/walks in different places/sniffy walks in woods/open space walks/even no walks for a couple of days when the spinning gets out of control and he starts doing it when he’s on the lead).

Music doesn’t seem to calm him, but we sometimes put Sky news on in the background when we’re trying to get him to have a nap…the low voices droning on do seem to help!

I’d say he has a pretty reliable routine; he’s always fed and walked at roughly the same time every day (other than when his spinning prevents him being walked). He spends all day with my DP (while I’m working), so I’m not sure exactly what they get up to, but DP is a creature of habit so I think DPup has a decent routine. He always comes up to spend the evening with us both in the lounge after dinner, normally has a short snooze (if we're lucky!), then goes to bed at about 11am.

  1. Nothing seems to happen immediately prior to a spinning session. I tend to keep a close eye on his body language and there don’t seem to be any obvious triggers…he just goes!

I personally think the fact that the other dog is quite aggressive to DPup might have had some bearing on the problem starting in the first place, but I think we’re past that point now. The other dog is an aggressive guarder (of toys, food, my DP, his personal space) so we’re always mindful of that, and his go-to warning is snarly teeth baring and yapping/barking.

Re. the spinning, I did consider that “even negative attention is attention”, but we know that DPup spins when he’s out of our sight / in a different part of the house (we've filmed him). In fact, he’s taken to sneaking off to the bottom of the garden and doing it there in secret (told you he’s smart!). So we’re pretty sure it’s not an attention thing. I’ve been trying really hard to spot any possible triggers, but when he’s bad, he’s spinning constantly (only stopping to catch his breath) so it’s impossible to pinpoint any triggers.

I think you’re right in that we need to scale back, slow down and make life easier for DPup, but our life is so scaled back and calm already that I’m not sure how much more we can slow down. We have to do something, DPup is losing his mind….as are we!

OP posts:
HornsOfADilemma01 · 02/03/2021 16:46

@PollyRoulson

1. You did not see qualified behaviourists - all the advice given is incorrect and will cause more spinning.
  1. You need a detailed vet check, full bloods, check anal glands check, allergiy testing maybe at the very least. Your vet should also be able to recommend a qualified behaviourist
  1. You MUST get qualified behaviourist help with this. You have an incredibly stressed out dog and NOONE on the internet can help you with this unless they are qualified (already some of the advice you have been given will make things worse.
  1. You are not looking at stopping the behaviour (well you are) you are looking at altering the emotional state that is making the dog feel the need to spin. So picking up will make things way worse and you could get bitten. Distraction may work for a short time but is only a stop gap you need to get the emotional state looked at.
  1. If you want to give an rough area I can recommend a behaviourist or the bonus of covid is that behaviourists are working on zoom and you have the choice of the entire country. A behavourist will not have to see the behaviour in rl to give correct advice, a detailed history and vet check will be more than enough.

Good luck I hope you can get your dog into a happier state asap.

@PollyRoulson, we did see three qualified behaviourists (I can't remember the qualification two of them had, but we followed a Mumsnet recommendation re. the qualification). The third was recommended by the vet. I agree that the advice we were given was counter-productive and has almost embedded the behaviour even deeper.

DPup has had three vet checks (five if you include the pre-vaccine health checks). Anal glands have been checked. Tail has been checked. Spine and hips have been checked. He's at the vet having a blood test right now. The vet seems to think we're wasting his time/our money, and we've been turned away from every other good local vet because they're not taking on new clients due to COVID.

As mentioned earlier, I'm aware that the spinning is an emotional response/self soothing behaviour, and we're trying our absolute best to resolve the issue for DPup's sake. We're not blindly following all the advice we're being given, both DP and I are intelligent and experienced enough with dogs to know what could work/what definitely won't work/what could make the behaviour worse, etc.

We've just exhausted our knowledge base when it comes to dealing with this spinning behaviour.

We're in the West Midlands; recommendations for a behaviourist would be most welcome, thank you.

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SirSniffsAlot · 02/03/2021 17:01

Wow. You've been dealing with a lot then? Smile

I wonder if this might be the time I'd bypass clinical behaviourists and ask for a referral to a veterinary behaviourist? Mainly because you don;t seem to be getting a good level of support from your vet and not having much luck with clinical behaviourists.

Is that something you've thought about?

PollyRoulson · 02/03/2021 17:01

I am sorry but there is NO way any organisation of qualified behavourists would recommend the adversive methods you have described in your original post, spraying water, making a noise for an already overaroused dog and using toys again on an already overaroused dog.

The only reason I am drawing attention to this is that if you get the correct professional advice you will see progress without it you will not. OCD behaviours in dogs are hard wired and will not be removed by inexperienced training (ever).

Try these they will give you a very different approach and should set you up with a plan to move forward.

Naomi at we teach pets
the brilliant Clare Arrowsmith at pet behaviour centre

HornsOfADilemma01 · 02/03/2021 17:52

@billybagpuss

To build on *@SirSniffsAlot* post, I agree you’re trying lots without really giving time for it to sink in.

I am 3 years into a stressy collie. She does the tail thing when she’s excited so we try and play with her and start giving butt scratches which she loves. And does calm her down.

The best thing I think for you to try is staying calm. Collies like jobs, ours would set off when there was someone at the door for example, so she has her bed and the bottom step of the stairs as her safe spots. So the door goes we say ‘on your step’ and she gets treats, scatter fed on her step. This will not work immediately for some time, start by making the space safe when he is calm and focused, then when he goes skits, stop him if you can, if not when he stops give him the command on your step and then loads of fuss and scatter feeding. You are already starting to recognise his triggers, so if one of those is about to happen, get him on the step (or wherever you chose) and scatter feed beforehand so he feels safe.

I hardly give any breakfast or tea as all her food comes in scatter feeding during the day

Tennis balls are like a shot of cocain, billypup is much calmer without them.

Make your walks shorter but play lots of focus games. We play where’s billypup so she has to sit and make eye contact to get a biscuit, you then just move 90* and do the same thing. Then play go find with the food we’ve trained this to a whistle. Give his dinner in a scatter ball rather than his bowl, we have a pineapple it’s great it takes her ages. Lots of focusing on you.

Good luck, you may live in a calm house, but your ball of fluff hasn’t worked that out yet, you need to work that through with him.

Hi billybagpuss. Thank you for your message, it's good to hear from a fellow stressy collie owner Smile. I agree with you and @SirSniffsAlot, i appreciate that we're doing lots of different things without giving them time to sink in. Although, i should point out that we're not actually following all the advice i listed on my OP, they were just to illustrate the range of different advice we've been given by behaviourists. So far, we've only tried the interrupter word to break DPup's trance-like state, the cone collar, and last night I started him withe a bit of clicker training (which I've used extensively with horses and dogs in the past) but that quickly backfired when it quickly became very clear that DPup thought he was learning a new trick (spin/stop for interrupter word/pause calmly/click & get a tiny sliver of cheese from the floor).

We've tried to make DPup's crate a safe space, it has a big squashy bed and vetbed and a fleece draped over all sides bar the front. In fact, he has two crates - one in the kitchen and one in the back of DP's shop, both kitted out the same. That's the only place we could scatter feed, because the other dog is such an aggressive food guarder, but there's not enough space in there to scatter feed with any real success. We have a scatter ball, but, again, we have to keep the two dogs apart when DPup has this which isn't always practical.

Yup, tennis balls are a complete no-no in our house, but occasionally he'll find one we missed in the garden and that's it.....spin central!

DP does do a lot of focus / recall work with DPup on walks, although not with food because he's found that this winds DPup up more and starts the spinning. We can't even use an excited/cheery puppy voice on walks because that also revs him up and starts the spinning.

It's so hard to watch this behaviour, because it's clear that DPup is so stressed out, it just makes your heart break to see, and I think we'd try anything (sensible) to stop it and give him a calmer, more stress-free life.

OP posts:
HornsOfADilemma01 · 02/03/2021 18:01

To Fourleafclover93;
Has he possibly started doing this because he's bored while at work with you or your partner and its just continued in the house? He shouldn't be bored (but i wouldn't rule it out). I'm WFH full time but my DP isn't working at the moment (runs a non-essential shop, which is closed). DP spends all day with him, playing. That could be part of the problem, of course, he has so much to entertain/stimulate him that he's never learned where his "off" switch is!

Re. the shaking stones in a bottle thing, that's kind of a variation on what we've been doing (i.e. using a loud interrupter word to break through his trance and then telling him he's a good boy for stopping and being calm...for a split second!). It seems to have made things worse because the loud noise unnerves him and seems to be making him more nervous.

Oh, another thing, he's not been neutered yet. All the behaviourists have recommended we wait for a while to increase his testosterone and (hopefully) make him less anxious going into adulthood. Fingers crossed!

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HornsOfADilemma01 · 02/03/2021 18:03

@LaurieSchafferIsAllBitterNow

Have you tried a DAP collar...we use an adaptil one. We have an insecure, super vigilant, needy neurotic GSD and the difference with the collar on is marked

He's been wearing them for three months and the first month it was noticeable that he was reverting to being a good deal more anxious as the end of the month approached, this one going on now will be his fourth and he has been pretty steady the whole month with only a small amount of reversion in his behaviour.

I'd say it has helped him a good deal, he chooses to settle in his own space and is not constantly looking for reassurance.

We've been using an Adaptil diffuser in the house for a while, and also sprayed onto a bandana. Doesn't seem to have made the slightest difference. I don't suppose it would do any harm to try a DAP collar too. Thanks for the recommendation Smile
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