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If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

Just don’t know what to do….spinning/tail chasing collie pup…..

86 replies

HornsOfADilemma01 · 02/03/2021 14:04

Hi Mumsnetters

I’m hoping that some clever person on here might have some experience of a similar problem, or have some tips/advice, because we’re fast running out of ways to help our gorgeous boy. Apologies in advance, this is long because I wanted to cover all bases.

So, a bit of background; DPup lives with me, my DP, a 4 year old (slightly spoiled) ShihPoo (shih tzu/poodle cross), and two lazy, friendly, large breed house cats. DP & I are experienced dog owners, having had a number of dogs in the past. Our old collie died (aged 14) early 2020 and he left a big hole in our lives. My DP, who has some physical limitations, works alone in his own shop and having a large-ish dog on the premises gives him security and peace of mind (a little, yappy ShihPoo just doesn’t really have the same effect!).

With all that in mind, we considered a number of options to fill the hole in our lives left by our old collie. We initially wanted to re-home a rescue, so we contacted loads of rescue organisations across the country with no luck (most didn’t reply, others said no rehoming was taking place due to COVID). After thinking long and hard, the decision was made to purchase a puppy rather than try to continue in vain to find a suitable rescue dog.

We spent the summer looking for a suitable puppy, avoiding what were obviously back yard breeders and puppy farms, but it proved incredibly difficult. Puppies were being snapped up quickly, even for stupidly inflated prices. Eventually, we found DPup, a smooth coated male collie, and there followed lengthy email, phone & video conversations with the breeder. We saw photos of the father (very distinctive markings which our pup shares), and DPup was still with his mother and litter mates in what looked to be a private home, so it all seemed legit and we decided to purchase him.

When we collected DPup, all was not as ‘legit’ as it had originally seemed….it was definitely a private home, the mother was there and was clearly a family pet, but the puppies (about 8 of them) were brought in from a filthy kennel/pen outside and it was all very chaotic with the pups peeing, pooing and vomiting all over the place/each other, squabbling, yelping, jumping all over each other, etc. The pup we’d reserved was the quietest of the litter, but still alert, bright & healthy looking, and we thought this was a good sign in that he’d be a relatively laid back puppy. The breeder couldn’t find DPup’s microchip with her scanner (she found the chips in the other puppies), and she confessed that he hadn’t actually had his first vaccines (she’d originally had told us he had). We were annoyed, and almost ready to walk away without DPup, but there were (literally) people queuing outside to buy the puppies and we felt very pressured after so long searching for the right puppy.

So DPup is now approx 6 months old. He’s adorable with the sweetest nature and he’s super smart; he slept through the night from day 2 (from 11pm – 7:30am), he was house-trained after about a week (he pees and poos on command), he’s never really chewed anything he shouldn’t, he doesn’t mouth/nip, he learned sit/wait/leave/down very quickly, he knows loads of words, and he has good recall (although this isn’t 100% reliable). He’s walked for about an hour/day on a long lead, sometimes two walks/day. He’s never been left alone, other than overnight, when he sleeps in his crate in the kitchen next to our other dog. The other dog doesn’t really seem to like DPup (there’s occasionally teeth baring and warning body language when DPup tries to play, etc), but he tolerates him most of the time. Despite lockdown, DPup is quite well socialised, we expose him to new experiences wherever possible and he meets other dogs/puppies/people on a regular basis.

However, like many collies, he’s very highly strung, anxious, fearful and a total stress-head! About 6 weeks ago, he started to chase his tail and this quickly escalated into an obsessive/compulsive behaviour. We have no idea what first triggered the behaviour, it seemed to start completely out of the blue. He’ll spin frantically until he runs out of energy or he bumps into an immovable object. He seems to do it more when he’s stressed/tired/excited.

He’s very noise sensitive (which I understand is common in collies). So far, we’ve successfully desensitised him to a lot of previously scary (for him) noises, but he still has a real problem with phones (the tinny voice on the other end of the line) and any kind of raised voice (including laughter); these really trigger his spinning and we’ve so far failed to desensitise him to these.

However, whilst initially very scared, anxious and reactive, he does get used to most new things quite quickly with reassurance and positive reinforcement. The way he comes to terms happily/quickly with some things and is absolutely terrified of others completely baffles us, to be honest!

So, back to the main problem. The spinning. We’ve had him checked by the vet three times so far (in addition to health checks at both vaccine appointments). We’re not sure exactly how much of an examination he’s had due to the vet not letting us go in to the consulting room (COVID), but every check-up has resulted in a clean bill of health and a referral to a dog behaviourist. We’ve now consulted with three different dog behaviourists; two via telephone/zoom and one via a face-to-face session (an hour). All three suggested different ways to remedy the problem. We’ve also done loads of reading/research on how to stop the behaviour, but there are so many different methods out there that our brains are fried!

All of the behaviourists have, however, agreed that we really must nip this behaviour in the bud, as the longer is goes on the more entrenched it will become. We’ve been told; (by behaviourist one) to make a sudden noise to interrupt him when he starts spinning, but this seems to make him more anxious, (by behaviourist two) to distract him with a toy, but this is impossible because he goes into a trance-like state when spinning, and (by behaviourist three) to spray water at him to interrupt the spinning Hmm . However, none of these methods sit well with me; he’s not being “naughty”, he’s a stressed, anxious dog who’s dealing with things the only way he knows how. No right-minded person would punish a child with tics, or one who sucks their thumb, and – to me – this is similar.

We’ve also read various approaches online; we should ignore the behaviour and give positive reinforcement when it stops (this doesn’t work as he only stops when he bumps into something or he’s exhausted) / we should physically prevent him from reaching his tail by using, for example, a buster collar / we should use clicker training (but this seems to train him to spin even more!) / we should get him onto Prozac / we should have him PTS.

He’s off to the vets again today, this time for a blood test. We ideally would like him checked for levels of serotonin and dopamine (apparently an imbalance can lead to this kind of compulsive behaviour), but the test costs c.£1200. We simply can’t afford that at the moment (DP’s shop is closed as non-essential and I’m on a rubbish salary).

One thing that may be relevant is that DPup has major FOMO; he’s “on” all the time, rarely settles and doesn’t really nap (perhaps an hour a day, tops). He also never really settles down with a chew/antler/lick mat/stuffed Kong; he’ll have a lick/chew and then pace around, then go back for a chew, then pace again, and on and on. This inability to settle/be calm is something that we’re aware is likely a major contributing factor to the anxiety/spinning, but we’re finding it impossible to improve the situation. DPup also seems to have a sensitive stomach, often goes off his food for no apparent reason, has intermittent diarrhoea…..and the worst flatulence ever! We’re moving him onto a raw food diet at the moment, to see if he might have some kind of food allergy/intolerance.

Can anyone suggest the best way to help us to help our poor, stressed DPup? We’re at the end of our tether, and it’s fraying fast! To watch him spinning and chasing his tail is so upsetting and distressing, even more so because we don’t seem able to help him in any way.

OP posts:
HornsOfADilemma01 · 02/03/2021 18:07

@BlackSabbath

Has he had his anal glands checked? Has he been wormed regularly? Anything else back there could be causing pain?

What happens after he's been spinning? Does he get lots of fuss and 'rewarded' with affection and cuddles? Told hes a good oy etc If? If so he could have learned that chasing his tail = lots of attention and love, which would obviously reinforce the behaviour

Yep, anal glands checked. Spine, hips and tail all checked (although not xrayed, the vet has pretty much refused to do an xray as it's "not an emergency"). He's wormed regularly (he did have a heavy worm infestation when we first brought him home).

No, he doesn't get any positive reinforcement to the tail chasing/spinning. In fact, it's probably only negative attention (i.e. the loud interrupter word). He does get told he's a good boy when he stops and remains calm though.

OP posts:
Alternista · 02/03/2021 18:39

You do sound like you’ve thrown a lot at it in quite a short space of time- I understand why but I wonder if it’s all just too much?

What about paring it right back to:

  1. Operation Wear Him Out- you both commit to longer and more frequent walks over the next 4-6 weeks
  2. You each commit one (different) hour a day to interrupting/stopping the spinning for 4-6 weeks. Just those two periods of time, and then you don’t worry too much about him doing it during the other times for the next month.

Nothing else. That’s it, the end. Nothing else for 4-6 weeks and then review. He won’t be perfect by then but you should hopefully see some progress? I think you’re panicking and searching for the magic answer but there most likely won’t be one- just gradual improvement.

I have lots of sympathy btw, and a history of neurotic collie ownership. Progress not perfection is a slogan I cling to in many areas of my life!

WaltzingBetty · 02/03/2021 19:53

Get a referral to a veterinary behaviourist.
His genetics and early life experiences are stacked against him and he very likely has significant anxiety disorder and compulsive behaviour.

You may well need medication to boost his serotonin and control anxiety but he needs expert advice soon.
The previous advice you've been given is terrible

WaltzingBetty · 02/03/2021 19:54

@WaltzingBetty

Get a referral to a veterinary behaviourist. His genetics and early life experiences are stacked against him and he very likely has significant anxiety disorder and compulsive behaviour.

You may well need medication to boost his serotonin and control anxiety but he needs expert advice soon.
The previous advice you've been given is terrible

I mean the previous behaviourist advice. Honestly get a proper referral abd be open minded to meds.

Behavioural outcomes are much better with appropriate medication

HornsOfADilemma01 · 02/03/2021 21:28

@TakeMeToKernow

After you spent so long try trying to find pup, I imagine this suggestion wont suit you... but would you consider rehoming your DPup to a more active family? You’re so right that collies are often “on” all the time and as you describe, our collies wouldn’t just settle quietly with a chew. More exercise and mental stimulation was my first thought as I started reading your post. We only had collies while we had a farm and the one collie I know who has been kept as a “house dog” has led a miserable existence.
We have had a couple of conversations about how fantastic he'd be in a working home - he'd be an amazing sheep dog! - but we're definitely not even vaguely thinking about giving him up. We love him to bits, hes' amazing, and we just have to learn to live with the dog we've got. However, if it was clear he was really really unhappy with us, then we'd have to consider all options for his happiness.

Also, in the current 'COVID puppy madness' climate, we wouldn't be able to visit/vet any new home

OP posts:
Singinginshower · 03/03/2021 00:03

HornsOfADilemma
I don't have any advice but just wanted to say how impressed I am with all the work you are putting in to try to sort this out.

billybagpuss · 03/03/2021 05:25

The other thing you need to do is be kind to yourself and sometimes take the win. When you mentioned clicker you said he stopped from the spin. Yes he started again, but he stopped for a moment and you rewarded that. Try again today, see if you can hold him in a wait for a moment longer then give the release cue. You could then build on it further by an in your crate for some scatter feeding.

Is it possible to separate them for an hour or two. Every undesirable behaviour billypup has had has been helped by scatter feeding. Every trainer I’ve seen has said it’s a calming measure.

I do wonder if he is over stimulated. Maybe shorten the walks but make calm the overall aim

Billypup also calms to bargain hunt as DS used to watch it with her when she was little.

There is a fb page dingbat to dreamboat with a lady that specializes in collies and she may be a good option to contact.

HornsOfADilemma01 · 03/03/2021 09:47

@LittleBoPeep95

*he’ll have a lick/chew and then pace around, then go back for a chew, then pace again, and on and on*

He sounds bored. How much excersise and mental stimulation is he getting? If working dogs don't have a job they often go 'self employed' so to speak.

I honestly don't think he's bored. In fact, I think we're probably guilty of over-stimulating him a bit. He has lickimats, snufflemats, feeder toys, 3 baskets of toys around the house, he has stuffed Kongs, brain puzzles, all sorts of natural chews (pizzles, tendons, antlers, etc). When you look at him spinning, his body language is that of a stressed dog, not a bored dog (frowning, panting, etc)

He has an hour walk daily, sometimes more (sometimes less, if the spinning is so frantic that he absolutely finds it impossible to walk forwards).

OP posts:
HornsOfADilemma01 · 03/03/2021 09:54

@SirSniffsAlot

Wow. You've been dealing with a lot then? Smile

I wonder if this might be the time I'd bypass clinical behaviourists and ask for a referral to a veterinary behaviourist? Mainly because you don;t seem to be getting a good level of support from your vet and not having much luck with clinical behaviourists.

Is that something you've thought about?

Yup, it's certainly been stressful! We're willing to explore any suggestions (other than if it's a behaviourist who charges £900/hour or a blood test that costs upwards of £1200 Shock).
OP posts:
HornsOfADilemma01 · 03/03/2021 10:01

@PollyRoulson. Two of the behaviourists were definitely APBC accredited, and this accreditation was recommended on Mumsnet. The third was recommended by the vet, so I have no idea what qualification/accreditation they had.

If you RTFT, we're not spraying water, we're only using the interrupter word and - in the past - we've tried to distract DPup when he starts spinning (but that's not very successful because he goes into a trance-like state and it's hard to break through that).

Thank you for the links; I'll do some reading Smile

OP posts:
HornsOfADilemma01 · 03/03/2021 10:13

@Alternista

You do sound like you’ve thrown a lot at it in quite a short space of time- I understand why but I wonder if it’s all just too much?

What about paring it right back to:

  1. Operation Wear Him Out- you both commit to longer and more frequent walks over the next 4-6 weeks
  2. You each commit one (different) hour a day to interrupting/stopping the spinning for 4-6 weeks. Just those two periods of time, and then you don’t worry too much about him doing it during the other times for the next month.

Nothing else. That’s it, the end. Nothing else for 4-6 weeks and then review. He won’t be perfect by then but you should hopefully see some progress? I think you’re panicking and searching for the magic answer but there most likely won’t be one- just gradual improvement.

I have lots of sympathy btw, and a history of neurotic collie ownership. Progress not perfection is a slogan I cling to in many areas of my life!

Hi @Alternista, thank you for your message. We probably have been panicking and trying too many methods in too quick a succession, but - honestly - we're desperate, the spinning is driving us insane!

I like the idea of Operation Wear Him Out; and we are already planning to take DPup on longer and more frequent walks. I slipped a disc in my neck before Christmas, and DPup pulls on the lead a bit, so I've been reluctant to walk him til now. However, I feel that I can now manage it with no ill effects. We have a large open space park and three lovely country parks nearby, so there are lots of new and interesting places for DPup to explore.

We have considered doing your second suggestion, but we were going to throw every minute of the day to it....I had a couple of days annual leave from work recently, and DP & I talked about being a sort of spinning prevention tag-team! He would do an hour, then I would do an hour, in the hope that we could really nip it in the bud. We didn't do it in the end because DPup seemed to be in a calmer phase and we thought the spinning was getting better.

How wrong we were!

Wouldn't committing a couple of hours to stopping the spinning, but ten ignoring it for the rest of the day send mixed messages?

I'm liking the slogan! That's a good one to live by Smile

OP posts:
HornsOfADilemma01 · 03/03/2021 10:29

@WaltzingBetty

Get a referral to a veterinary behaviourist. His genetics and early life experiences are stacked against him and he very likely has significant anxiety disorder and compulsive behaviour.

You may well need medication to boost his serotonin and control anxiety but he needs expert advice soon.
The previous advice you've been given is terrible

Hi @WaltzingBetty, I've never been against meds, I think there's a definite case for them, but my DP is reluctant. However, DPup went to the vets last night (for a blood test). He saw a different vet this time, and she was taking the spinning very seriously (I think it helped that DPup was stood right in front of her spinning like fury!). She'd done some research in advance of the appointment and advised us not to do a blood test, because it wouldn't show anything of any significance and would be a waste of money (not to mention putting DPup through it).

She gave us some valerian extract liquid and Trazadone (which is apparently also used for people with "major depressive disorder & anxiety disorders". Vet gave enough for a couple of weeks and we're to take DPup back to see her then.

DPup had his first lot at 8am, so fingers crossed we see an improvement soon (although I know anti-depressants/anti-anxiety meds in people can take more than a couple of weeks to take effect....maybe a dog's brain reacts more quickly.

OP posts:
HornsOfADilemma01 · 03/03/2021 10:40

@Singinginshower

HornsOfADilemma I don't have any advice but just wanted to say how impressed I am with all the work you are putting in to try to sort this out.
DPup is worth it Smile
OP posts:
HornsOfADilemma01 · 03/03/2021 10:49

@billybagpuss

The other thing you need to do is be kind to yourself and sometimes take the win. When you mentioned clicker you said he stopped from the spin. Yes he started again, but he stopped for a moment and you rewarded that. Try again today, see if you can hold him in a wait for a moment longer then give the release cue. You could then build on it further by an in your crate for some scatter feeding.

Is it possible to separate them for an hour or two. Every undesirable behaviour billypup has had has been helped by scatter feeding. Every trainer I’ve seen has said it’s a calming measure.

I do wonder if he is over stimulated. Maybe shorten the walks but make calm the overall aim

Billypup also calms to bargain hunt as DS used to watch it with her when she was little.

There is a fb page dingbat to dreamboat with a lady that specializes in collies and she may be a good option to contact.

With the clicker training, it went something like this: Me: STOP (the - very unimaginative - interrupter word we use Smile) DPup: stops spinning and looks at me Me: pause for two seconds, so he knows that the pausing is the desired behaviour, and not the spinning Me: click and throw a piece of grated cheese on the floor for DPup

But, after a few of these, DPup - being a smart little chap - realises that spin-stop-pause gets him a tasty sliver of cheese. So he deliberately starts to slowly spin (less furiously than normal) and then pauses and then looks around for the cheese!

I think that a longer pause (as you mentioned) would help the matter, and maybe introduce a release word. He knows "ok", as we regularly use this to release him from a "leave" command.

DP is a member on the Dingbat to Dreamboat FB page. In fact, he's recently posted a video of DPup on there for some advice. You may recognise the problem if you use the page!

He's not having any walks at the moment, because the spinning is out of control and is stopping him from walking forwards. It's heart breaking to watch Sad

OP posts:
RestingPandaFace · 03/03/2021 10:51

As a former neurotic collie owner but absolutely not a behaviourist you need to break the trance. A word, the stones bottle or a touch (if you can get close enough with out getting knocked over) and then a distraction like a treat when he stops. We also found that if we kept our dogs tail and feathers trimmed quite short he did it less.

The other thing that jumped out at me was that he might be overstimulated, maybe try clearing away all the toys except one or two and then just having one or two toys out at a time, you can swap them every day so he doesn’t get bored.

HornsOfADilemma01 · 03/03/2021 10:56

This was yesterday morning on his walk. DP had to cut the walk short as DPup just wouldn't stop spinning

OP posts:
RestingPandaFace · 03/03/2021 11:10

How does he walk on a short lead across your body?

Held like this?

Just don’t know what to do….spinning/tail chasing collie pup…..
PollyRoulson · 03/03/2021 11:17

[quote HornsOfADilemma01]@PollyRoulson. Two of the behaviourists were definitely APBC accredited, and this accreditation was recommended on Mumsnet. The third was recommended by the vet, so I have no idea what qualification/accreditation they had.

If you RTFT, we're not spraying water, we're only using the interrupter word and - in the past - we've tried to distract DPup when he starts spinning (but that's not very successful because he goes into a trance-like state and it's hard to break through that).

Thank you for the links; I'll do some reading Smile[/quote]
I am extremey concerned if they wer APBC accredited.

Can you confirm exactly what they said.

If it was a positive interrupter then that may be ok but very very unusual advice for OCD behaviours.

We’ve been told; (by behaviourist one) to make a sudden noise to interrupt him when he starts spinning, but this seems to make him more anxious If it was a positive interrupter then that may be ok but very very unusual advice for OCD behaviours eg you make the noise away from the spinning a nice noise like a kissy kissy noise then give the best treats ever. (will not work with ocd behaviour though) But if they are suggesting making a loud adversive noise that is against the APBC code.

(by behaviourist two) to distract him with a toy, but this is impossible because he goes into a trance-like state when spinning a good first approach to see how deep the OCD behaviour is but unlikely to be offered as a plan as an over aroused dog will not react to toys and if they do it will increase the arousal

and (by behaviourist three) to spray water at him to interrupt the spinning hmm adversive methods that would make the situation way worse and is against the code of the APBC.

Would you be able to pm me the names of the behaviourists?

HornsOfADilemma01 · 03/03/2021 11:18

@RestingPandaFace

As a former neurotic collie owner but absolutely not a behaviourist you need to break the trance. A word, the stones bottle or a touch (if you can get close enough with out getting knocked over) and then a distraction like a treat when he stops. We also found that if we kept our dogs tail and feathers trimmed quite short he did it less.

The other thing that jumped out at me was that he might be overstimulated, maybe try clearing away all the toys except one or two and then just having one or two toys out at a time, you can swap them every day so he doesn’t get bored.

Hi, thanks for your message, it's good to hear from another fellow neurotic collie owner!

DPup is smooth coated, his tail isn't fluffy., so no trimming possible.

We've tried the reward when he stops spinning, but he's so smart that he associates the spinning with the treat. I always leave a pause once he's stopped spinning and stood calmly, and only then click/treat, but he still seems to think that SPIN-STOP-PAUSE-TREAT is what im looking for, and not just the STOP-PAUSE-TREAT part of the routine.

We do rotate the toys to keep him interested. Funnily enough, DP & I were discussing some research he'd read about removing all toys completely to reduce anxiety. I don't know the research behind that, but it doesn't sit well with me.

OP posts:
HornsOfADilemma01 · 03/03/2021 11:20

@RestingPandaFace

How does he walk on a short lead across your body?

Held like this?

I can't answer that because I've not been walking him (I slipped a disc in my neck before Christmas). He does pull on the lead though, that's something we need to tackle asap.
OP posts:
PollyRoulson · 03/03/2021 11:31

Your video is heartbreaking Sad.

Has the vet seen the videos?
I would want thyroid check I guess done on bloods already?
Neurological check
You do need to get in a good behaviourist asap it may be that medication is required.

Just reread your posts!

You are getting really dodgy advice She'd done some research in advance of the appointment and advised us not to do a blood test, because it wouldn't show anything of any significance and would be a waste of money

You need to rule out thyroid, liver issues, kidney issues and toxin build up - blood tests will tell you loads and loads. Are you in the UK?

I am really surprised that the APBC behavourists gave any advice without full bloods.

This is extremely serious and will not go away without professional help. Your insurance may pay for the behaviourists and bloods.

I am not happy to give any advice but on a basic level this may help

Do not try to stop the behaviour but train in different behaviour instead. as you are finding with the clicker training the dog to stop spinning is nearly impossible but training acalm behaviour is easier.

So I would be training a chin rest or nose target (from choice chin rest is more calming) - the dog rests his head on your hand. (he can not be spinning in circles if he has his head in your hands)

I would also train a settle which is a down but relaxed onto one hip. A traditional down for a collie is actually a very stimulation position - think of when they are herding sheep.

This is not going to go away with advice from people on facebook or the internet - you need to get bloods, get professional help asap.

PollyRoulson · 03/03/2021 11:33

Also if you did have contact with APBC behaviourists you should have a written plan with timescales on it and also follow up sessions - have you had the follow up sessions?

AvocadosBeforeMortgages · 03/03/2021 11:47

@PollyRoulson

1. You did not see qualified behaviourists - all the advice given is incorrect and will cause more spinning.
  1. You need a detailed vet check, full bloods, check anal glands check, allergiy testing maybe at the very least. Your vet should also be able to recommend a qualified behaviourist
  1. You MUST get qualified behaviourist help with this. You have an incredibly stressed out dog and NOONE on the internet can help you with this unless they are qualified (already some of the advice you have been given will make things worse.
  1. You are not looking at stopping the behaviour (well you are) you are looking at altering the emotional state that is making the dog feel the need to spin. So picking up will make things way worse and you could get bitten. Distraction may work for a short time but is only a stop gap you need to get the emotional state looked at.
  1. If you want to give an rough area I can recommend a behaviourist or the bonus of covid is that behaviourists are working on zoom and you have the choice of the entire country. A behavourist will not have to see the behaviour in rl to give correct advice, a detailed history and vet check will be more than enough.

Good luck I hope you can get your dog into a happier state asap.

This is pretty much everything I was going to say.

You need an APBC or CCAB accredited behaviourist - lists are on the APBC and ASAB websites.

AvocadosBeforeMortgages · 03/03/2021 11:57

Just realised there was a second page and RTFT 🙄 Ditto more of what @PollyRoulson said.

Yup, it's certainly been stressful! We're willing to explore any suggestions (other than if it's a behaviourist who charges £900/hour or a blood test that costs upwards of £1200 shock).

Has someone actually quoted you £900 an hour? Shock This is the behaviourist I went to - she is APBC qualified, and charges £95 for a 1.5 hour zoom behaviour consultation with written follow up. She also does in person work within 100 miles of her in SW Wales. She was very good with DDog.

www.jenninellist.co.uk/price-list

Have you checked DPup's insurance? Some, including PetPlan, have coverage for behaviour issues.

billybagpuss · 03/03/2021 12:22

So with the clicker train, you have managed to stop him spinning albeit for a moment. This is something to work on just increasing the time. Don’t give up on it, you’ve made a start.

I had a look at the YouTube clip, have you ever done the circle of calm? Literally just get two points about 10 m apart and walk forward and back , ridiculously slowly between the two. What you want is for eventually he will get so bloody bored of it he will start to focus on you and walk properly, the first time I did this with billypup it took about 30 minutes. You don’t want to do it anywhere too exciting or it won’t work at all. When he focuses then start to throw some behaviours in.

I’m going to pm you the details of one of the ladies I use, we’re not too far away from you but not exactly around the corner either.