Do you use raw food - or have you found it too much hassle?

[loveyouradvice]

Hmm... I've realised that his Lily's kitchen is NOT giving him the best diet and have been reading up on Allaboutdogfood. (Great website!)

Although I love the idea of having all the benefits of raw food, I am a bit concerned it might be quite a hassle

What's your experience?
How have you made your life easier doing it?
What's your least favourite thing about it?

And what do you do when travelling ... my wee fella is a brilliant traveller but would love to take easy food with us - can he switch to freeze dried or something else for a few days?

I'm not sure what your rationale is for suggesting prescription diets don't work or are poor quality - please share it..

Websites such as "all about dog food" always rank Hills and Royal Canin as being exceptionally poor nutritionally (around 37%) and in terms of value for money.

I'm not referring to food for say, diabetic dogs or whatever, but bog standard dry food for adult dogs. I don't know why they rate so poorly when they're promoted by vets up and down the country.

I think you need to provide your evidence that suggests clinically proven prescription diets don't work.

I never said dogs don't cope fine on a diet of say, Hills, but equally lots of dogs survive on Pedigree Chum - that doesn't mean it's a good quality food.

If they're such good foods for my dog, why do they consistently come out bottom on independent ratings websites?

@mammaaof I am actually looking to switch to tinned food and stop raw anyway. Was chatting with DH about this. The breeder uses tripe with her pups for weaning, but she also said that raw food doesn't have to be given with each feed. Kibble alone is fine. We use Happy Dog kibble. Bavarian company. Those who want to criticise that choice can Google it if they want. Breeder has tried Royal Cabin and other well known kibble brands but this one is the best by far. We notice the poos are not massive, formed well etc. We wanted to give dpup a few weeks to settle into her new home before altering her diet.

I am willing to take advice on board. I appreciate input from our local vet and also Veterinari on here. Don't agree with the level of grief he/she is getting from other posters though on this thread. It's uncalled for.

• Royal Canin🤣

I am willing to take advice on board. I appreciate input from our local vet and also Veterinari on here. Don't agree with the level of grief he/she is getting from other posters though on this thread. It's uncalled for.

I don't think asking her for an explanation is giving her grief. It's fairly common knowledge that Royal Canin and Hills rate very poorly in terms of nutrition when you look on independent rating sites.

So I don't think people are out of order to ask a vet why those foods continue to be promoted by vet practises when they are demonstrably poor quality.

Give it up @raspberrysundaes, we aren’t ever going to get a clear answer here.

Whether or not @Veterinari sells/recommends the brands or not the fact remains that a significant proportion of vets do sell and promote them as good brands of food for healthy adult dogs.

The assumption has to be therefore that the majority of vets genuinely do think it’s a high quality brand we should be feeding healthy dogs.

As I say, I am not fixed in my ways.
Given a good compelling argument I am more than willing to change my view.

But when the brands mentioned consistently score so poorly, the ingredients seem so vastly at odds with the construction and behaviour of a dog and to boot, when asked ‘why do vets recommend this food/how does it benefit my dog’ and the only real answer that comes up is ‘it was designed by experts’, well, it doesn’t do much to convince me that the food actually is of good quality.

I can’t imagine a stray dog eating oats and wheat and corn from the fields.
Yet looking at the ingredients in these foods you’d think they would be.

But I can well imagine them catching and killing squirrels and scavenging whatever available discarded human food they find.
The idea of feeding such a heavily grain based diet just seems completely at odds with who dogs are.

It’s clear to see looking at dogs they are predators and even clearer to see looking at their behaviour.
Look at all the dogs of all sorts of different breeds who have never been encouraged or trained to do so that chase cats, squirrels, deer, sheep etc and sadly tend to maul them once caught up.
They are designed to eat meat.

The panda was quoted upthread as an example of a vegetarian with carnivore teeth but it’s behaviour is entirely different.
You don’t see pandas stalking rabbits!

And then vets wonder why people think it’s all about money 🤦🏻‍♀️

I am willing to take advice on board. I appreciate input from our local vet and also Veterinari on here. Don't agree with the level of grief he/she is getting from other posters though on this thread. It's uncalled for
Grief 🤣
For asking for an explanation as to how the foods are good because the ingredients are really poor.

I don’t personally agree with kibble full stop but do you not find it a little telling @blowinahoolie that your breeder fed the food ‘designed by experts’ and sold (and therefore we assume recommended) by most vets but found happy dog kibble better?!?!?!

Because the ‘designed by experts’ food is shit food, comprised of dirt cheap ingredients that dogs would never naturally choose to eat..

Yep, I'm inclined to agree with you @Snaplittledragon

My dog wouldn't take to it. He has a sensitive stomach so we were desperate to find a solution and the solution is cooked veg and cooked meat mince. He has carrots potatoes, green veg and pork, beef or lamb mince. He also sometimes has an egg, some fish, but never has chicken any more. We think he is poultry- intolerant. He is happy on this diet. He has mostly natural treats such as dried cow tails, plus some cheap and cheerful Bakers meaty chunks. His tummy is settled and his poos perfect

• @Veterinari so are you telling me that if I walked into your vets practice tomorrow I wouldn't find a display of specific brands of dog food? Because if there is such a display you cannot pretend your practice isn't promoting those specific foods!!!*

Well firstly I don't own a practice so I have very little control over what is stocked

The practices I work for sell prescription diets - you're right vets do promote those food because they're supported by evidence showing clinical benefits

Interesting isn't it that vets get grief for selling evidence based products that work. Would you prefer we stick to opinion and quackery?

This is like Groundhog Day

I don't want to criticise you @blowinahoolie but I would love to know why you chose HappyDog. I'm in Germany and it's one of the more affordable brands available here. My dog eats very little kibble, and only under sufferance, but I'm always unsure which one to offer her. So if you have a moment I would be really interested to know what makes that one good.

We asked our vet about raw food. One thing he said that stuck in my mind is, because our dog is a bit shaggy around the muzzle, there was the potential for microscopic bits of meat to stick in her fur - so we'd have to watch our DS like a hawk to make sure he wasn't getting too close, kissing the dog etc and inadvertently getting food poisoning. That put me right off....

The practices I work for sell prescription diets - you're right vets do promote those food because they're supported by evidence showing clinical benefits
But by prescription diets you are, I assume, referring to diets for unfortunate dogs with serious medical conditions..?
‘Prescription food’ = renal diets, Diabetes diets etc?
No one is actually referring to ‘prescription diets’ here.
They are referring to the adult dog food on sale made by Royal Canin/Hills.
Food for healthy adult dogs.
Food that an awful lot of vets recommend for healthy animals...

I’ve had it myself, back when my animals were on raw.
The vet was happy to ooh and ahh over the cats shiny coat, ooh her teeth are so clean, I can see you brush them!

As if id be brushing her teeth!
Is anyone able to brush a cats teeth without losing a finger?!
Tell the vet she eats raw food - defrosted mice, chicks, chicken wings etc
The horror!
What was I recommended to feed her?
Oh yes, Hills dry food!
WHY?!
Why that brand?
Why not Applaws or nature’s menu or any of the other high meat, high quality brands.

So I don't think people are out of order to ask a vet why those foods continue to be promoted by vet practises when they are demonstrably poor quality.

You seem to be confusing me with a veterinary nutritionist. I've made it clear I'm not. I've also answered this question about 3 times. If you don't like my answer then I'm afraid I can't help you 🤷‍♀️

If @Snaplittledragon and @raspberrysundaes are intent on derailing the thread by making me responsible for the decision of every pet food company and vet practice in the UK that up to them.
If you think I make those decisions then you really are clueless

Websites such as "all about dog food" always rank Hills and Royal Canin as being exceptionally poor nutritionally (around 37%) and in terms of value for money.

But when the brands mentioned consistently score so poorly, the ingredients seem so vastly at odds with the construction and behaviour of a dog and to boot, when asked ‘why do vets recommend this food/how does it benefit my dog’ and the only real answer that comes up is ‘it was designed by experts’, well, it doesn’t do much to convince me that the food actually is of good quality.

Right so your nutritional 'expertise' in criticising vets is based on websites you've read on the internet. Particularly one run by some bloke with an 18 year old zoology degree. Flawless. You must definitely be right then. I cannot imagine why highly trained professionals don't do the same.

If you're prioritising the info you get on food comparison sites then you probably are making the common mistake of confusing nutrients with ingredients.

https://www.petfoodindustry.com/blogs/7-adventures-in-pet-food/post/5255-online-pet-food-reviews-wheres-the-science

It’s clear to see looking at dogs they are predators and even clearer to see looking at their behaviour.
As I've already pointed out, it actually isn't and the science contradicts you.

Dogs have evolved much differently in their ability to metabolize carbohydrates and select a diet lower in protein (30% of ME from protein) than the diet of wild wolves.

And the total lack of cooperative hunting behaviour in free roaming dogs is compelling isn't it?
Free roaming dogs scavenge, they don't hunt.

At least do a quick google before making unfounded assertions. It makes you look silly.

It's interesting isn't it how you're all demanding that I provide a 'compelling argument' for foods that I've neither recommended nor promoted, but yet you seem to have absolute faith in your own incorrect assumptions about canine nutritional and behavioural needs, and in a stuff you've read on a website on the internet (must be true then!)

The practices I work for sell prescription diets - you're right vets do promote those food because they're supported by evidence showing clinical benefits
But by prescription diets you are, I assume, referring to diets for unfortunate dogs with serious medical conditions..?
‘Prescription food’ = renal diets, Diabetes diets etc?
No one is actually referring to ‘prescription diets’ here.
They are referring to the adult dog food on sale made by Royal Canin/Hills.
Food for healthy adult dogs.
Food that an awful lot of vets recommend for healthy animals...

Right so regardless of my actual experience, you want me to explain the stocking decision of business I don't work for and have no experience of?
Yeah that seem reasonable

I answered this last night based on my experience. If it's not the answer you want. Tough. I'm not sure why you keep asking the same question repeatedly and exiecting a different response. It's tedious and in no way helpful to anyone.

What's your job by the way?

@Snaplittledragon

The practices I work for sell prescription diets - you're right vets do promote those food because they're supported by evidence showing clinical benefits But by prescription diets you are, I assume, referring to diets for unfortunate dogs with serious medical conditions..? ‘Prescription food’ = renal diets, Diabetes diets etc? No one is actually referring to ‘prescription diets’ here. They are referring to the adult dog food on sale made by Royal Canin/Hills. Food for healthy adult dogs. Food that an awful lot of vets recommend for healthy animals...

I’ve had it myself, back when my animals were on raw.
The vet was happy to ooh and ahh over the cats shiny coat, ooh her teeth are so clean, I can see you brush them!

As if id be brushing her teeth!
Is anyone able to brush a cats teeth without losing a finger?!
Tell the vet she eats raw food - defrosted mice, chicks, chicken wings etc
The horror!
What was I recommended to feed her?
Oh yes, Hills dry food!
WHY?!
Why that brand?
Why not Applaws or nature’s menu or any of the other high meat, high quality brands.

Just to check, you're not referring to prescription diets because you accept that they're clinically sound and evidence based.

So you accept that companies can make appropriate food for pets with complex medical and nutritional needs.

But not for pets without those needs...

Yeah. That makes sense

And thanks @blowinahoolie but to be honest I think some people just want to 'burn the witch' and you can't reason with that 🤷‍♀️

Not when they believe that their opinion and a website on the internet outweighs actual science and professional training

Thats more like it - I left the thread yesterday, and it was all calm, most disconcerting for a raw feeding thread then this morning back to normal and getting personal

@PollyRoulson

Thats more like it - I left the thread yesterday, and it was all calm, most disconcerting for a raw feeding thread then this morning back to normal and getting personal

@BatleyTownswomensGuild

We asked our vet about raw food. One thing he said that stuck in my mind is, because our dog is a bit shaggy around the muzzle, there was the potential for microscopic bits of meat to stick in her fur - so we'd have to watch our DS like a hawk to make sure he wasn't getting too close, kissing the dog etc and inadvertently getting food poisoning. That put me right off....

It's actually not even just if food gets stuck @BatleyTownswomensGuild

For dogs fed raw meat (depending on testing and sourcing) they may well be exposed to pathogenic bacteria like E. coli, salmonella etc which can colonise their guts and they can become chronic shedders with no ill effects.

This is the public health risk of raw feeding / dog with pathogenic bacteria in their saliva and fury transmitted to people through licking/stroking.

I’m done with this I’m afraid.
Anyone can clearly see that dogs (and cats) are designed to eat meat and foods constructed almost entirely of grains/cereals are not good for them and not what they should be eating.

I have always been distrustful of vets, I’ve had some not very nice experiences of vets prolonging pets suffering and making their owners feel shit in the process, plenty of rudeness too.
I don’t visit the vet unless absolutely necessary and I’m sorry to say you have strengthened that negative opinion considerably.

You’ve been quite rude and sarcastic throughout and haven’t offered a proper answer to what I think is a perfectly reasonable question.

All you’ve done is shout ‘its Designed by experts’ and tried to compare dogs to pigs and pandas and people to try and demonstrate that cereal is the perfect diet for what is clearly a meat eating animal.
Oh and a small quote from a study.
Not the actual study so no idea how many dogs, what breeds, over what period of time, who paid for the research...

It’s little wonder a lot of people don’t trust vets.

I had to leave my last vet as he suggested a vegetarian diet for a cat, anyone suggesting an obligate carnivore has a vegetarian diet is not acting in the animals interest. He also wrongly described a cats jaw action and said they had a similar chewing technique to cows...he now lives in a house made of various old horse boxes etc in Wales.

We do raw for our animals, we don’t make our own as I’m really not a meat fan and so I don’t want to handle it. I buy premade balanced meals, the only thing I really avoid is venison as wild venison can have/carry TB and the testing process is vastly different due to being wild, compared to cows. I also avoid rabbit for ethical reasons.

I’m fairly certain our dog could eat anything, he seems to have a fairly robust stomach. Our cat however has an incredibly delicate stomach and the smallest change in her diet upsets her. She was rehomed by her previous owner due to her digestive issues.

@raspberrysundaes

I'm not talking about prescription foods either - unless that means something different to you?

I'm wondering why a vet practises would recommend that a healthy dog with no underlying issues be fed such a poor diet?

I once emailed Royal Canin as a vet had advised I feed it to my cat, I wanted to know what percentage of each ingredient etc and they said they do not publish this information.

If a company making food will not tell people what is actually in it there is absolutely no way a responsible owner should feed it. Plus cats have a poor thirst drive, so feeding them dry versions of foods is awful.

@Snaplittledragon

I’m done with this I’m afraid. Anyone can clearly see that dogs (and cats) are designed to eat meat and foods constructed almost entirely of grains/cereals are not good for them and not what they should be eating.

I have always been distrustful of vets, I’ve had some not very nice experiences of vets prolonging pets suffering and making their owners feel shit in the process, plenty of rudeness too.
I don’t visit the vet unless absolutely necessary and I’m sorry to say you have strengthened that negative opinion considerably.

You’ve been quite rude and sarcastic throughout and haven’t offered a proper answer to what I think is a perfectly reasonable question.

All you’ve done is shout ‘its Designed by experts’ and tried to compare dogs to pigs and pandas and people to try and demonstrate that cereal is the perfect diet for what is clearly a meat eating animal.
Oh and a small quote from a study.
Not the actual study so no idea how many dogs, what breeds, over what period of time, who paid for the research...

It’s little wonder a lot of people don’t trust vets.

That's a shame, after all you've been so reasoned and courteous... Oh no, actually you haven't

You've accused me of 'shouting', of being in the pay if pet food companies and of withholding evidence (I posted the link to the original research earlier in the thread, but I guess the conspiracy theories are easier to stick to aren't they?) it's like pet food conspiracy bingo here.

You seem to think that I owe you an explanation for the work of large companies that I am totally uninvolved in, and haven't recommended . I don't. It's bizarre that you think I do

You might find life easier if you adjust your expectations.

So you accept that companies can make appropriate food for pets with complex medical and nutritional needs. But not for pets without those needs...

I just don't understand why a dog food whose primary ingredients are dried poultry protein, rice, animal fat and maize feed meal is beneficial for my dog.

What benefit does this food (for example) provide above other brands to justify the price?

https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/dogs/drydoggfood/royalcaninnsize/maxi/13419

It's not that I don't believe the foods can't be beneficial, it's just that I don't understand why their ingredients make them so good that they're generally double the price of other brands of food like James Wellbeloved or Millie's Wolfheart.