Do you use raw food - or have you found it too much hassle?

[loveyouradvice]

Hmm... I've realised that his Lily's kitchen is NOT giving him the best diet and have been reading up on Allaboutdogfood. (Great website!)

Although I love the idea of having all the benefits of raw food, I am a bit concerned it might be quite a hassle

What's your experience?
How have you made your life easier doing it?
What's your least favourite thing about it?

And what do you do when travelling ... my wee fella is a brilliant traveller but would love to take easy food with us - can he switch to freeze dried or something else for a few days?

Plus public health concerns are entirely separate to canine nutritional issues

Because commercial diets are developed by veterinary nutritionists to be both complete and safe for humans. You don't have to buy your diet from the vet - vets tend to stick brands that produce prescription diets with hypoallergenic/renal/sensitive variants - that's why those brands are stocked - they have an evidence based therapeutic indication
God that is such a disappointing response.

I view the kibble vs raw debate very much like Brexit.
Im not ‘set’; give me a good argument and I’ll think about it and maybe re consider my view.
But you haven’t.

You haven’t told me why the Hills science diet (as an example) is the best thing I could feed my dog.

If Hills science diet is sold in my vets, and the vets recommend it, I don’t think it unreasonable to want to know what it is specifically about the food that makes it so good for my dog.

‘Developed by veterinary nutritionists to be safe’ isn’t telling me why it’s so good.
What benefit do the ingredients have?

With respect, if vets are unable to explain why a food they recommend is best, an actual explanation, not ‘it was developed by experts’, well then i really don’t think they have much right to complain when owners feed raw..

Remember dogs are omnivores - like pigs and humans.

How much meat is healthy for us?

Dogs are not cooperative hunters, don't live in packs, and don't cooperatively raise pups. Their biology and lifestyle are entirely different to wolves and they're separated by 30k years of evolution.

It's the same as arguing that humans today should live the same lifestyle as Stone Age people

Bloat is primarily a breed specific disorder - it relates much more to morphology than diet
The thread is specifically about diet.
The study also found links to elevated feeding stations, keeping dogs thin and stress but none of those are diet related 🤷‍♀️

Pretty much covers all good quality commercial dried foods
I’m not sure there is such a thing.

But I donfind it odd that the vet only sells say, Hills.
Why not ‘Akela’ or ‘crave’ or any other dry food brands with a high percentage of meat?
Why specifically those foods with such poor ingredients?

Also, Wolves generally live about 6 years
In the wild.

@Snaplittledragon

Because commercial diets are developed by veterinary nutritionists to be both complete and safe for humans. You don't have to buy your diet from the vet - vets tend to stick brands that produce prescription diets with hypoallergenic/renal/sensitive variants - that's why those brands are stocked - they have an evidence based therapeutic indication God that is such a disappointing response.

I view the kibble vs raw debate very much like Brexit.
Im not ‘set’; give me a good argument and I’ll think about it and maybe re consider my view.
But you haven’t.

You haven’t told me why the Hills science diet (as an example) is the best thing I could feed my dog.

If Hills science diet is sold in my vets, and the vets recommend it, I don’t think it unreasonable to want to know what it is specifically about the food that makes it so good for my dog.

‘Developed by veterinary nutritionists to be safe’ isn’t telling me why it’s so good.
What benefit do the ingredients have?

With respect, if vets are unable to explain why a food they recommend is best, an actual explanation, not ‘it was developed by experts’, well then i really don’t think they have much right to complain when owners feed raw..

I'm not going to argue that Hills is the best thing you can feed your dog because it might not be

I have zero knowledge of your dogs nutritional needs and making a blanket recommendation of a single brand would be inappropriate. If you want that, prepare for disappointment.

What I will do is give evidence based information based on current science to allow owners to make better choices through evaluating evidence - if you don't want to do that, that's on you.

Remember dogs are omnivores - like pigs and humans
Are they though..?
Their tooth structure and jaw structure and behaviour and body shape is much more in keeping with a predatory animal.
When was the last time you saw a pig for arguments sake hear the squeal of an animal in pain and respond with excitement? Or stalk a small animal? Or chase after a squirrel.
Has predatory behaviour ever been documented in pigs?
Because it sure has in dogs.

Dogs are not cooperative hunters, don't live in packs, and don't cooperatively raise pups
Neither are cats but no one would deny they are predators

If you actually read my posts @Snaplittledragon you'll see that I actually just answered your specific question - why is Hills a hood food? If because it's nutritionally balanced and evidence based and safe for public health isn't good enough then I can't help you

If you instead want to feed food that is demonstrably a public health risk and not nutritionally balanced, that's also your choice.

If you want me to answer what's the best food to feed your dog then that's an entirely different question requiring a totally different set of information which you haven't given me.

@Snaplittledragon

Remember dogs are omnivores - like pigs and humans Are they though..? Their tooth structure and jaw structure and behaviour and body shape is much more in keeping with a predatory animal. When was the last time you saw a pig for arguments sake hear the squeal of an animal in pain and respond with excitement? Or stalk a small animal? Or chase after a squirrel. Has predatory behaviour ever been documented in pigs? Because it sure has in dogs.

Dogs are not cooperative hunters, don't live in packs, and don't cooperatively raise pups
Neither are cats but no one would deny they are predators

You need to revise your biology Cats are obligate carnivores and solitary hunters. Dogs are not.

This is like nailing jelly to a wall

Just as an aside. Pandas are also 'carnivores' with a great set of gnashers...

I'm not going to argue that Hills is the best thing you can feed your dog because it might not be
Right, but if the only foods stocked by vets are by Hills and Royal Canin then you must endorse that food..?
To be clear, I am not referring to say, prescription diabetes or renal foods here.
I am referring to the general Hills/RC adult dog food.
For healthy adult dogs with no health conditions.
There are hundreds of brands yet vets pick those.
Why?
If that food is being sold in my vets, out of hundreds of alternative brands, the assumption is the vet thinks it’s a good food and endorses it.
All I am asking is why does the vet believe that particular brand of adult dog food is a good food to endorse and sell?
How do the ingredients benefit my dog?
Maize, wheat gluten, tomato pomice etc.
What benefit do these ingredients have for my dog?

@Snaplittledragon

I'm not going to argue that Hills is the best thing you can feed your dog because it might not be Right, but if the only foods stocked by vets are by Hills and Royal Canin then you must endorse that food..? To be clear, I am not referring to say, prescription diabetes or renal foods here. I am referring to the general Hills/RC adult dog food. For healthy adult dogs with no health conditions. There are hundreds of brands yet vets pick those. Why? If that food is being sold in my vets, out of hundreds of alternative brands, the assumption is the vet thinks it’s a good food and endorses it. All I am asking is why does the vet believe that particular brand of adult dog food is a good food to endorse and sell? How do the ingredients benefit my dog? Maize, wheat gluten, tomato pomice etc. What benefit do these ingredients have for my dog?

Because as I have already said, there are not hundreds of brands that stock a range of evidence based prescription diets. So most vets stick the few brands that do. So that when we have animals that's require a prescription diet we have them to hand.

Additionally most vets are small businesses with a small customer base - especially for pet food. Which is why they focus primarily in prescription brands.
If you expect a small business to be able to stick a 'pets at home' range, you clearly don't understand small business economics. Small businesses stick the foods that most of their customers want to buy from a vet. Pet shops stock wider brand varieties. They're different businesses. HTH.

• How do the ingredients benefit my dog? Maize, wheat gluten, tomato pomice etc. What benefit do these ingredients have for my dog?*

Could make the same argument for bread, potatoes, oats. Potatoes, maize inhuman diets.
They're an easily digestible energy source.

With respect, if vets are unable to explain why a food they recommend is best, an actual explanation, not ‘it was developed by experts’, well then i really don’t think they have much right to complain when owners feed raw..

Out of interest - what's your address evidence base for feeding raw meat that's a know public health risk?

I say feed your dog kibble if you are also prepared to eat pot noodle every day, every meal and the same flavour for weeks on end.
It’s the same thing.

Dogs get little choice or autonomy in their lives - at the very least we should offer them food that provides a variety of flavours, textures and smells. The same as we enjoy.

Different types e.g. whole prey provide mental stimulation.
Bones etc help clean their teeth.
Fur/feathers are natural wormers and add bulk so help to ensure anal glands stay healthy.

Plus, it’s species appropriate.
Why wouldn’t you feed your dog the food it’s designed to eat?

It can be cheaper than feeding kibble - I get a lot of food free from local hunters etc.

It doesn’t have to be messy or a faff.
Mine eats in his crate - I just wash his bed cover as needed.

I ensure I get a meal/box out the night before so it’s ready for the morning.
Dogs have far more corrosive acid in their stomach, so you don’t need to be as careful with defrosting their food as with humans. If it’s left out for 12-15 hours, as long as it’s not 30C, it’ll be fine.
You can also re-freeze it multiple times if needed.
Loads of companies deliver to the door free of charge.
The more you buy, the cheaper it is so just get a big freezer - you can often pick them up free or super cheap from Facebook or freecycle.

Your dog will thank you for it.

Dogs have far more corrosive acid in their stomach, so you don’t need to be as careful with defrosting their food as with humans. If it’s left out for 12-15 hours, as long as it’s not 30C, it’ll be fine.
Totally irrelevant to the public health risks of raw feeding...

Vets in the UK push the kibble they sell, for the same reason doctors in the US push specific drugs for their patients.

They’re paid to do so.

There’s no public health risk. It’s just scare-mongering.

Out of interest - what's your address evidence base for feeding raw meat that's a know public health risk?
I said upthread the studies posted showing a possible health risk to people with raw food must not be ignored/must be taken seriously.
I think raw is the best possible diet for the dog, but if it poses a public health risk that has to be carefully considered.

All I am saying is the brands vets promote appear to be constructed of very cheap ingredients with very, very little meat.

If vets are displaying that in their surgeries, NOT the prescription diets but regular, general adult dog food by that brand they should be able to explain to owners what it is about that specific brand of food that makes it good to feed to pets.
By that, I don’t mean ‘it was made by experts’, that means nothing to me.
And I suspect a lot of dog owners wouldn’t be satisfied either.

I think that if you cant offer a proper explanation as to how a particular food benefits the animal you don’t really have a right to question owners feed choices.

You say you couldn’t recommend a particular food without seeing the animal but you surely have an opinion as to which foods are best?

I mean, if I asked you pick between bakers and butchers you’d have an opinion on which is the better food?

Or crave vs Hills or chappie vs pedigree etc?

And you’d surely be even able to tell me why.
If you picked butchers over bakers for example, and I asked why you’d presumably say thing like bakers has colourants possibly linked to hyperactivity or it doesn’t contain much meat and so on.

But you can’t tell me why Hills/Royal Canin are good foods apart from ‘designed by experts’ and ‘maize is an easily digestible energy source’?

I think that if you cant offer a proper explanation as to how a particular food benefits the animal you don’t really have a right to question owners feed choices.

Where did I question your feeding choices?

Or claim to be a proponent of Hil's/RCW? You seem to be struggling with comprehension

If you won't accept evidence based, developed by nutritionists, an no risk to public health as sound reasons then I can't help you.

If you'd rather feed a diet with no evidence basis and a known public health risk as a protest vote that's up to you. I'm not here to tell you how to think. I assume you're a grown up.

You're right, it is like Brexit 😂

If vets are displaying that in their surgeries, NOT the prescription diets but regular, general adult dog food by that brand they should be able to explain to owners what it is about that specific brand of food that makes it good to feed to pets.

If you're expecting me to justify the business practices of every vet in the uk, you may need to adjust your expectations.

Plus umm not really sure that's what this thread is about

@Spanielmadness

Vets in the UK push the kibble they sell, for the same reason doctors in the US push specific drugs for their patients.

They’re paid to do so.

Are we?

Interesting! I must chase up that cheque.

By the way COVID vaccines have microchips in the and world leaders are lizard men!

@Spanielmadness

There’s no public health risk. It’s just scare-mongering.

Oh good! An expert!

Now if you could just share your evidence that refutes the peer reviewed science and health and safety data, we can definitely take your confidently asserted unfounded opinion as fact....

@Veterinari 🤣

[quote Spanielmadness]@Veterinari 🤣[/quote]
Yup that's pretty much the reasoned, evidence based response I expected!

As you’ve probably noticed I am rather on the fence, having fed both raw and kibble at different times.

I will admit that I hadn’t considered raw in terms of wider public health, just mine and my family’s, which I felt we managed last time with fastidious hygiene.

I am still researching what’s available in order to decide what I will feed when we get our next pup and was leaning towards raw, but now I have a question. Actually, I feel like every time I get close to making a decision about which direction to go I find there are yet more questions. I have had dogs for over 30 years and am constantly learning, so I really feel for first time owners trying to work out what to feed their dog.

Veterinari do you think the complete foods that are regulated by DEFRA and PFMA and have each batch fully tested against Enterobacteriaceae-Salmonella and Ecoli are as much of a risk as DIY raw?

I have looked at LOTS of complete raw food company websites over the past few weeks (as well as websites for cooked complete, kibble and dehydrated) and was surprised how few have their testing and certification easily accessible so you genuinely know what you’re getting. I thought I’d finally found one that looked good, with every batch tested against the above. So I’d be interested to know if the batch testing genuinely makes any difference to the safety of their product or if I am back to the drawing board and need to have a rethink.