Worried - dog snapped at my child

[SoiPup]

As per previous posts, we live in Bangkok and adopted a dog from a shelter. Turns out the dog is 16 months old (not 9 as we thought). In the shelter, the dog was super confident, outgoing and friendly. Turns out she is an axious and fearful dog. She is super nervous on walks and also scared of any visitors - barks and growls at them and takes a long time to accept them.

Anyway, we had a trainer come over and she really helped us with the walks (the dog has improved amazingly) and gave us some tips on how to handle visitors.

However, this morning, the dog growled and snapped at my 6 year old. DD was in the dog's face and the dog had just come out the kitchen with some rice from her bowl (leftover from her breakfast) plus our cleaning lady had arrived which stresses the dog too. I didn't see exactly what happened. But she did snap at her which is clearly a red flag and a concern.

We do need to get 6 year old to give the dog some more space and to be more respectful of her, that is clear. Our previous dog was a confident big breed who would tolerate anything so that was her previous experience and obviously this dog is a completely different temperament.

Of course it is still early days with the dog (we've had her 10 days now) and the last thing I would want to do is rehome or send her back to the shelter, that would be awful. But I must admist I'm worried. Next week we're starting socialization and obedience classes as recommended by the trainer so I will discuss with the trainer then and see what she thinks. In the meantime, we are being much more careful with how DD approaches and interacts with the dog.

WWYD? Any advice on the best thing here?

What a massive risk you're taking here with your young children. You must be mad.

Sorry to be so negative and I'm sure I'll get flamed, not that I particularly care about that. But come on ... you have a taken on a dog with an unknown history re temperament and it's already growling and snapping at your young child and now your husband and is now resource guarding. It's also a mix of breeds, one of which is known for guarding and not exactly being fluffy and cuddly unless brought up with lots of socialisation

I'd be removing the dog from my home before it injures my child. To carry on like this is high risk and foolish

All the advice I'm getting (from experts and professionals) is that this is a transition period for the dog. It's manageable in the short term. If after she settles, training and behaviour modification it continues and professional opinion is that it can't be changed, then we would consider our options.

Lift? Are you in a block of flats? That means there is so much more stimulation involved in going out for walks. Something this shelter raised dog won't be used to. When I say over exposed I mean to everything, to the children, family life and all its sounds and smells, new food, walks etc.

Yep, everything is new for her! She'd never been walked before, never toilet trained, never lived in a home. Her entire life has been her enclosure at the shelter. That was it. She did have positive contact with people as the staff there cared for them as best they could so she's not a street dog who may have had bad experiences.

No but she's been raised in captivity, so that is a bad experience in itself. You need to think of it like adopting a child who had only lived in a children's home. Some of the things you see as quite basic everyday and normal may be terrifying for her.

She did have positive contact with people as the staff there cared for them as best they could so she's not a street dog who may have had bad experiences.

Living in shelter all her life IS a bad experience, though. She's had zero socialisation outside of that environment. She's never been around children, a family, a home and everything that comes with it.

Yes, it's good that she's never had to fend for herself in the same way a street dog has, but she's certainly not free from trauma and bad experiences. The key window for socialisation ends at 16 weeks. She's 16 MONTHS old and hasn't experienced anything outside of the shelter.

Yes, I agree! I wasn't minimizing. I was there in the shelter for two days in a row and saw the conditions.
Although she was never mistreated, her world was very very small and limited - and she's been through a lot in the last 12 days!

@SoiPup

It's not the pulling, it's that if something panics her, she can get loose. But I think I'd rather find her a good harness instead, it doesn't feel right to be honest (although priority is making sure she can't get loose as that could be a disaster).

The dog isn't treat motivated on walks, too much going on around her and when she's panicked, she won't take a treat at all.

We get her to come with a treat (although ocassionally I've gone after her if she starts to trot away). In the beginning we'd have to pick her up but now she will come after us on the lead without having to pick her up (or pull her of course).

To go from our building to the street - it's hard to explain her behaviour. It's not so much coaxing (although there is some of that). But she'll panic and start running around or try to run back. The trainer said to me to stand still at that point and just give her time to compose herself, once she's composed and ready then to carry on walking forward. So I do that and she will, usually within seconds, relax and carry on with the walk. Sometimes she's happy, sniffing and exploring - she seems more relaxed than before - but sometimes she's tail down, creeping along. Since the advice on trigger stacking, I haven't taken her out to the road and only in the car park and around the building.

Hi OP, another thing to bear in mind is the fight or flight response. When she's on a lead her flight is restricted so she may feel no option but to switch to a fight response and bite the person holding the lead if her attempts to back aware from the scary thing are thwarted by the lead.

Likewise, I would avoid going after her if she runs away from the lead because that just teaches her that the flight option doesn't work, so pushes her more towards using the fight option.

You say that her world was small when she lived at the shelter but I think that you might need to accept that she may always be a small world dog. She may never be able to cope with the world outside of your apartment and the carpark.

Back away from the scary thing

"You say that her world was small when she lived at the shelter but I think that you might need to accept that she may always be a small world dog. She may never be able to cope with the world outside of your apartment and the carpark."

That would be fine but a bit sad. She's a young dog and she's responding really well to training so far so I'm optimistic that she'll improve with time. Let's hope! I think we made mistakes with her in not appreciating the massive difference between adopting a dog with her background to one who had been a pet before but we're learning and I think we're also improving too as her humans :)

It is sad, but it is often the reality with dogs who have had no socialisation.

It may be that she would be fine on isolated walks somewhere but it doesn't seem like you live somewhere where that would be easy?

I walk a rescue dog who had pretty much no walks or socialisation from his previous owners. He's fine with people but otherwise he struggles massively. He's okay around a couple of other dogs but is terrified of cars, horses, most other dogs, trains, loud noises, car journeys - it's really sad as he's such a lovely boy but that early socialisation period is so important to them and he just missed out.

His world is very small. But luckily his owners live rurally so they can walk him miles from the doorstep.

Actually we did finally find somewhere pleasant that allows dogs. It's a half-hour drive (in weekend morning traffic - would be ridiculous in Bangkok weekday traffic) so only possible at weekends but she was much calmer on that walk and seemed to even enjoy it mostly. I've been cutting back now as I think we were doing too much but will try her there again in the future.

That's really nice.
My current rescue was badly traumatised by her first owner and spent several months in kennels before she was adopted. She was incredibly shut down and very scared. It has taken years to coax her out of that and she is still afraid of her shadow.
But it is so pleasing to see her on good days and moments when she relaxed. The first time we took her to the beach was amazing - I don't think she had ever been to the beach before and there was a dawning of pure joy for her. It was the first time in about 3 years we had actually seen her really excited and playful.
I think your pup has landed on it's paws with you OP. It sounds like you are willing to take advice, and put time and effort into helping this dog acclimatise to its new home.

A small world is sad compared to what might otherwise have been, but a safe, calm, contented small world is not a bad or sad outcome for her with her background.

I hope she proves a bit more resilient and we can slowly expand her horizons. We'll see how she is once she's more settled. I've been joining some FB groups on anxious and fearful dogs and she's nowhere near as bad as many of them.

We've had a good day today with zero growling or any kind of aggression and even after she ran away with the place mats to chew on them and I had to take them from her. She barked at the cleaner who came today (I keep on trying to explain to the cleaner to just ignore her and toss treats but she keeps on trying to encourage her to come which doesn't help - a bit of a cultural/linguistic barrier there) but just barking, nothing else and not hiding under the bed either. I think this is no small part thanks to the excellent advice I've been receiving here so thank you all for your inputs!

AND (very proud boast) she's learned to sit. We only started teaching her yesterday!

You're doing a great job OP. You can't cure all her problems in just a few days. I think the fact that you're listening to what others have to say is really helpful.
I think you'll find in 6 months your dog will be transformed. Good luck!

@SoiPup

"You say that her world was small when she lived at the shelter but I think that you might need to accept that she may always be a small world dog. She may never be able to cope with the world outside of your apartment and the carpark."

That would be fine but a bit sad. She's a young dog and she's responding really well to training so far so I'm optimistic that she'll improve with time. Let's hope! I think we made mistakes with her in not appreciating the massive difference between adopting a dog with her background to one who had been a pet before but we're learning and I think we're also improving too as her humans :)

I think optimism is fine OP. These dogs are often surprisingly rehab-able. In my experience the key is to take it slowly initially and build a really strong rapport/relationship. Dogs like this get their confidence from their social support.

Thank you for such kind and supportive messages! It's really lovely to hear because it is quite an emotionally draining task - and the advice has, of course, been very helpful too.

We've had a great day with her, no major issues at all. She's an affectionate dog and comes to us to be petted and made a fuss of which is just right for our family. Fingers crossed we can continue like this!

@SoiPup

Actually we did finally find somewhere pleasant that allows dogs. It's a half-hour drive (in weekend morning traffic - would be ridiculous in Bangkok weekday traffic) so only possible at weekends but she was much calmer on that walk and seemed to even enjoy it mostly. I've been cutting back now as I think we were doing too much but will try her there again in the future.

Aww, that's lovely!

The dog I spoke about earlier has an amazing time on his walks. I walk him from his door and yes, we stick to the same routes but he absolutely loves. He has no recall but I use a long lead on him and he runs, sniffs, pees and just has a great time. We rarely (if ever) see anyone so the chances of him reacting is tiny. When I first walked him, he wouldn't take treats on walks (he was just too worked up) but six months later and he'll sit on command and take treats from my hand :)

He'll never have the confidence or socialisation of some other dogs, but as long as I can help make his small world an amazing place to be, I'm happy!

Update on us:

Another couple of good days. Zero aggression - growling or snapping, we do have some barking - around anything. I'm really starting to think that she really was just overwhelmed.

Still hates going down to the car park but once she's there, she will sniff around for a bit so she is interested and not shut down although is much happier coming home!

Still barking at strangers who come in (cleaner, oldest daughter's boyfriend, anyone else plus the TV) but she doesn't seem as fearful as before (when she would hide under the bed).

Sounds like real progress, looks like it was just her settling in and feeling a little nervous. I hope her growing phase continues and that she is comfortable with others/doesn’t bark.

I wonder if it’s a good thing that you have people on and out so she gets used to ‘strangers’

I hope so. I was worried her behaviour would deteriorate as she settled but very pleased it seems to be the opposite now we've dialed back what we were doing with her.

If the dog snapped at the child then you need to get rid of the dog . Dogs can and have killed children. The dog sounds dangerous. Your dd should come first in her own home.

Oh that's great @SoiPup! Well done all of you. I'm just going ignore that precious post and suggest you do too.

That sounds positive op.
Is your dd throwing treats to the dog. My dil got our dgs to throw small treats in return for a sit or lie down. Eventually the dog saw dgs as a giver of food not a taker.