Worried - dog snapped at my child

[SoiPup]

As per previous posts, we live in Bangkok and adopted a dog from a shelter. Turns out the dog is 16 months old (not 9 as we thought). In the shelter, the dog was super confident, outgoing and friendly. Turns out she is an axious and fearful dog. She is super nervous on walks and also scared of any visitors - barks and growls at them and takes a long time to accept them.

Anyway, we had a trainer come over and she really helped us with the walks (the dog has improved amazingly) and gave us some tips on how to handle visitors.

However, this morning, the dog growled and snapped at my 6 year old. DD was in the dog's face and the dog had just come out the kitchen with some rice from her bowl (leftover from her breakfast) plus our cleaning lady had arrived which stresses the dog too. I didn't see exactly what happened. But she did snap at her which is clearly a red flag and a concern.

We do need to get 6 year old to give the dog some more space and to be more respectful of her, that is clear. Our previous dog was a confident big breed who would tolerate anything so that was her previous experience and obviously this dog is a completely different temperament.

Of course it is still early days with the dog (we've had her 10 days now) and the last thing I would want to do is rehome or send her back to the shelter, that would be awful. But I must admist I'm worried. Next week we're starting socialization and obedience classes as recommended by the trainer so I will discuss with the trainer then and see what she thinks. In the meantime, we are being much more careful with how DD approaches and interacts with the dog.

WWYD? Any advice on the best thing here?

I think you've over exposed the dog and it needs to be supported to feel safe. I used guards and rails to keep my rescued street dog away from my SC and never gave them the opportunity to get near the dog. I think the trainer needs to work with you on expectations. I have always had rescue dogs and would say it can take a month before some feel safe enough to start letting their real selves show which can lead to more not less issues and training for you is ongoing.

The trainer was all for us taking her out on the streets for walks and did it with me. Her theory was that the dog will trust us as she learns that there is nothing to actually be afraid of. And it did seem to work to be honest But the advice here on this site seems to be very different.

I've spoken to a different trainer and might have her over for a session and see if I get different advice/approaches.

Hi OP, I would stop giving her chews all together. It's not worth the risk with your young DC around. Your dog could easily hide a chew in her crate when you're not looking then guard the crate (chew) from your DC or you when you let her out again.

Does the new trainer have experience of working with street dogs? Have you discussed whether or not she uses flooding?

@SoiPup

I stand corrected. She is now resource guarding. She has a chew bone that she loves. She's started resource guarding with that. Snarled at DH when he came near her when she was chewing it yesterday (and she'd had a very low key day so unlikely to be trigger stacking, at least not from that day). I even got a little growl from her when I followed up. Managed to take it with a higher value treat but this is going to have to be now a priority area to work on. Now all chews are banished unless she's shut in her crate as too much of a risk with DD around (DH hadn't even noticed she has her chew as her back was turned, DD could easily make that kind of mistake).

Wow, this dog is going to be a LOT of work!

This is to be expected and quite predictable given her history. It's pretty normal with soi dogs

One of the challenges of assessing them in the shelter is that there's nothing there for them to protect and no normal household experiences, so trying to use their shelter behaviour as a predictor of their rehomed behaviour is impossible.

Firstly - remember the growling is just space-creating behaviour - if it's practical to give her space then do so and let her enjoy her treat.

If not then distract her and safely remove any bones/high value long lasting treats that may encourage guarding. Stick to things that can be eaten quickly.

Short walks etc are fine I think - she's a street dog so will be fairly used to being out and it's good quality time with you - just keep them shirt and reassurance high and bring her home if she appears stressed

The trainer has a street dog herself and warned us that the resource guarding might develop.
She also snapped at my 17 year old today as well when she went to pet her and she'd seemed really bonded with her.
It seems like we're quickly going from bad to worse.

@SoiPup you handled. the resource guarding situation perfectly - well done.

It's another reason to transition her to kibble and less exciting food. Keep teaching her that hands are for giving, not for taking away and over time she'll relax but it will take some time

@SoiPup

The trainer has a street dog herself and warned us that the resource guarding might develop. She also snapped at my 17 year old today as well when she went to pet her and she'd seemed really bonded with her. It seems like we're quickly going from bad to worse.

It's normal for behaviour to deteriorate - her stress levels will be really high after rehoming and it will take a couple of weeks for that anxiety to start to settle down.

Try and keep things slow and predictable, make sure she has a safe space she can retreat to undisturbed, make sure that no one bothers her when sleeping or eating, call her over for attention, don't go and impose yourself on her - choice and control are key

Also care with body language - hers - see the links I posted previously to pick up on stress signs, and Human - no looming over, patting down etc.

She's not actually a street dog as she's never lived on the streets, she's always been in the shelter, that's been her entire experience.

@SoiPup

She's not actually a street dog as she's never lived on the streets, she's always been in the shelter, that's been her entire experience.

Ok, then the streets may well be stressful for her. So take it slowly.

I would strongly suggest doing calm-on-cue/settle training to reduce arousal

go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=positively.com/dog-behavior/basic-cues/relax/

www.dogstrust.org.uk/help-advice/training/settle-training

Reinforcing calm quiet behaviour is really important for easily-aroused dogs.

And thank you for all the advice and encouragement.

She is a sweety and I feel inside she's got the potential to be a great companion pet. She picked up toilet and crate training in a flash so she does respond to us. And, of course, our alternatives for good rehoming are very limited so we really need to make it work for her.

Good luck

I do think it sounds like a dangerous set up and with a dog like this, your child is at risk I think that’s why, in the UK, you would not have been given a dog like this with a child age 6

Please be very very careful or even reconsider if this was a good idea

I love dogs, but I love kids even more

@SoiPup

And thank you for all the advice and encouragement.

She is a sweety and I feel inside she's got the potential to be a great companion pet. She picked up toilet and crate training in a flash so she does respond to us. And, of course, our alternatives for good rehoming are very limited so we really need to make it work for her.

My experience is that they are very loving dogs and great companions, but can be very reactive/fearful in this transition period when they don't fully trust you and don't have the relationship developed and every new experience is stressful.

I'd honestly focus on keeping things calm and quiet, and on basic training and rapport building with all members of the family.

Just spending time sitting with her giving her long slow strokes and ear rubs til she relaxes with you, training quiet calm behaviour and basic obedience training, teaching her to take treats gently from hands and to control her impulsiveness. Minimise any risky situations related to feeding/sleeping and ensure all members of the family give her space and the choice not to interact but also lots of gentle calm reinforcement when she does choose to interact.

Hang in there!

Definitely look up canine body language and child dog interactions

I'd minimise the 6 year olds interaction for now and all interactions should be actively supervised (as with any dogs)

www.familypaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/5-types-Supervision-HR.compressed.pdf

@SoiPup

She's not actually a street dog as she's never lived on the streets, she's always been in the shelter, that's been her entire experience.

I came back to correct the fact that I called her a street dog in my last post because I remembered that she had never left the shelter. She will need to be introduced to walks in a positive way at a pace that she's comfortable with.

Does she take treats when you are in the carpark? Does she take them on the street? How does she react when you get the lead to take her for a walk?

The trainer told us to stop giving treats on walks.
She is realtively happy and relaxed in the car park now but once she's done her business, pulls very strongly to go home. As soon as she is in the lift, she relaxes. When she sees the lead, she starts running off in the opposite direction but she will walk OK with us once it's on without any pulling although we may need to wait until she's ready (previously she would just sit in terror and refuse to move).

@HouseofBrieandBanter

Good luck

I do think it sounds like a dangerous set up and with a dog like this, your child is at risk I think that’s why, in the UK, you would not have been given a dog like this with a child age 6

Please be very very careful or even reconsider if this was a good idea

I love dogs, but I love kids even more

This is probably true and if we don't see an improvement after the transition period and we can't modify the behaviour then we will consider our options.

But, that said, any dog is a risk. DD was bitten in the face at the age of 3 by our friend's dog who apparently had never bitten anyone ever before and lived with children. And i just saw a post on one of the FB groups here to rehome a pure bred mini poodle which had bitten a child in the face and, apparently, displays no bite inhibition.

If this is just the transition and we can get through it safely, then hopefully DD will have a dog to accompany her for the next 15 years. At 6, she's old enough to understand how important this is for her and the dog.

@SoiPup

The trainer told us to stop giving treats on walks. She is realtively happy and relaxed in the car park now but once she's done her business, pulls very strongly to go home. As soon as she is in the lift, she relaxes. When she sees the lead, she starts running off in the opposite direction but she will walk OK with us once it's on without any pulling although we may need to wait until she's ready (previously she would just sit in terror and refuse to move).

Does she have a harness OP?

Collars and leads are often aversive as they're misused as restraints in some settings.
I'd avoid any neck pressure if you can until she adjusts

She's on a slip leash on the advice of the trainer. She said that if she panics then she will get out of any collar or harness (she has done already once).

@SoiPup

The trainer told us to stop giving treats on walks. She is realtively happy and relaxed in the car park now but once she's done her business, pulls very strongly to go home. As soon as she is in the lift, she relaxes. When she sees the lead, she starts running off in the opposite direction but she will walk OK with us once it's on without any pulling although we may need to wait until she's ready (previously she would just sit in terror and refuse to move).

How are you getting the lead on her? Are you following after her or are you able to call her to you and distract her with treats whilst you clip the lead on?

Does she willingly walk onto the street or does she have to be coaxed?

Why did your trainer tell you to stop giving her treats?

I really wouldn't be using a slip lead. They're designed to tighten and put pressure on the neck and throat when the dog pulls and can cause damage long-term.

Either walk her on a standard collar/lead combination (if she doesn't pull) or a harness if she does.

I also wonder why your trainer said not to give her treats?

It's not the pulling, it's that if something panics her, she can get loose. But I think I'd rather find her a good harness instead, it doesn't feel right to be honest (although priority is making sure she can't get loose as that could be a disaster).

The dog isn't treat motivated on walks, too much going on around her and when she's panicked, she won't take a treat at all.

We get her to come with a treat (although ocassionally I've gone after her if she starts to trot away). In the beginning we'd have to pick her up but now she will come after us on the lead without having to pick her up (or pull her of course).

To go from our building to the street - it's hard to explain her behaviour. It's not so much coaxing (although there is some of that). But she'll panic and start running around or try to run back. The trainer said to me to stand still at that point and just give her time to compose herself, once she's composed and ready then to carry on walking forward. So I do that and she will, usually within seconds, relax and carry on with the walk. Sometimes she's happy, sniffing and exploring - she seems more relaxed than before - but sometimes she's tail down, creeping along. Since the advice on trigger stacking, I haven't taken her out to the road and only in the car park and around the building.

When my street dog came home we were told to use a slip lead at all times as a backup, so we would use a harness but the slip lead would also be held loosely in our hands in case of emergency. Mine isn't an escape artist so it wasn't really needed but if you know she can escape then you need that extra backup.

I notice that your older DD has been warned off when she went to pat her - I had to force myself to be very hands off with my rescue and let her come to me. It might seem like she's doing really well but she's still finding her feet and mine took about 3 months to seem to settle in. So I would say pat and stroke the dog if she comes to you, but don't approach her to do it.

Does sound like she's got a lot of learning to do but it's so rewarding to look back and see how far they've come

I think we've all got a lot of learning! Dog and humans!
I'm blaming my lack of productivity at work on the fact taht there's a semi lockdown in Thailand and the kids are at home but, in fact, it's the four legged one who is distracting me the most!!

It's not the pulling, it's that if something panics her, she can get loose. But I think I'd rather find her a good harness instead, it doesn't feel right to be honest (although priority is making sure she can't get loose as that could be a disaster).

Get a harness with a strap that goes under her belly, and clip it onto her collar with a caribeener if you can get one. Rufferwear Websmaster are excellent harnesses but not sure if you can get something like that where you are.

Bless her, she sounds incredibly overwhelmed. I would stop approaching her and let her come to you. Just ignore her and let her explore and relax and settle at her own pace. I do get it's hard because you just want to fuss and reassure them!

And that's a GREAT idea to have a harness as the main lead and a looser slip lead as a back up! We'll do that. Thank you for that excellent piece of advice!