Same dog has attacked mine twice - WWYd

[HappyThursdays]

First time, my puppy was on his lead when the Labrador literally came out of nowhere and jumped on him aggressively and held him down. Puppy screamed but luckily because he was on the lead, I could drag him up and had to wrestle him off the dog. He was only about 13/14 weeks at the time and was really upset but luckily no skin broken. I was in shock and the owner said sorry but just wandered off.

I subsequently found out from others that it's well known that this Labrador has problems with male puppies.

Just went on my walk this morning, puppy was off lead and I saw a Labrador in the distance, couldn't be sure it was this one, but to be careful I called him back and put him on the lead.

Within a few seconds, this Labrador was running full speed at us and immediately pounced on the puppy and held him down by the back legs. Pup has a harness on him and I know they say you shouldn't pick them up but it was the only way to get him out of his jaws. The owner stood by and did nothing.

This time I really lost my shit and shouted at him and refused to accept his apology. I said if he knows his dog has a problem he must either be on lead or called back to be on lead when other dogs are around. He honestly couldn't have been less bothered, did say sorry but I said it wasn't enough and he strolled off.

I now know where he lives. Would you report this and where do you report it to?

It was both, the dc are released in to the park from school. I have to locate them both before I can take them home because due to work i'm few minutes late. There are 2 entire dogs belonging to school mums always roaming. They bother us all the time not just when dpup was in season. She's small and feel intimidated by them on her lead and I'm not surprised, but I won't let her off as it's not a place any dog should be off a lead. Not really sure what you are questioning?

@HappyThursdays

I asked as I wondered whether the lab is "playing" rather than being aggressive. I've had a dog (Border Collie) be viciously attacked by an aggressive dog (Akita) and had incidents when my dogs have had tussles with slightly overly "playful" badly controlled dogs.

With the actual attack the other dog ran straight at my dog growling aggressively and went for his neck and mauled him. It took the owner a few minutes to manage to get his dog off mine.

When other dogs have been "playing" but being imo too rough they tend to just try and hold my dog down, mouth and sometimes nip. I have had a go at the owner of a lurcher as her dog was nipping mine and she did f all despite my dog yelping. However I wouldn't class that as a dog attack, just badly controlled.

But he didn't break the skin. I don't know if that is because I was there and immediately grabbed him away

Not excusing the other dog being out of control at all, but if he didn't break skin then it's because it was not his intention to. There is no way a human can really react quick enough to prevent injury if one is meant.

That said, what starts as unintentional can also quickly escalate if no one interupts it. However, that specific bite was not intended to injure, otherwise it would have.

Puppies scream like banshees, even when not physically hurt. It's their instinct to.

None of which means it wasn't frightening for your pup or you, or that the other dog shouldn't be under better control - for its sake as well as everyone else's. It would have been upset or stressed in some way also, to react like that. It would have been happier kept at a distance from the puppy that it was comfortable with, rather than feeling it had to act in some way.

Yes I agree, and I did think about it afterwards. The lab was growling and baring his teeth and I spoke to someone afterwards in the village who told me he had taken a nip out of their (male) dog's hind leg which needed vet treatment though he was in no way biting my pup (though there was a mark where he 'held' the puppy down on his hind quarters).

I agree I wouldn't have been able to react in time but I was right there and literally grabbed him the minute he approached so he didn't get much time. Each time pup has been right by me on his lead so it's literally a matter of a second before I've managed to grab him. I'm worried though that it's escalating and eventually gets to the point where he does take a chunk out of him rather than holding him down. Pup is super confident so not prone to squealing (has only squealed twice and both in the grasp of this lab!).

I'm not trying to overstate the incident. I'm a fairly experienced dog owner and I'm appalled that someone would allow their dog to behave this way off lead with other dogs when the owner is apparently aware he has an issue.

If you saw the look in this dog's eye, you would know what I mean. You know when dog's have that look when they are attacking that they mean business

This really frustrates me. Where I live dogs have to be on leads at all times in public, other than in designated off lead dog parks (and no way would I ever take my dogs to one of those!!), but still you get the irresponsible owners who think it doesn`t apply to them and that their dogs can charge around accosting everyone else.

There was one dog in particular in our area a few years back who was very aggressive to other dogs, always smaller ones than him. I had a very nervous five year old female foster terrier at the time, as well as my previous older dog (RIP PoleDogSr ).

I used to take PoleFoster out separately sometimes for walks to build her confidence, train her and so on, on one occasion this dog came rushing at her snarling and pinned her down, I grabbed her from him and picked her up and YobboDog kept snarling and jumping up at me. I felt very lucky not to have been bitten.

The owner came out with the old classic "he just playing" and the joy all small dog owners hear "you should get a proper dog" .

Next time I took her out I took PoleDogSr with me, he was extremely kind, gentle and tolerant but as he was 62kg he was more than twice YobboDog`s size.
YobboDog made a beeline for PoleFoster again, and beat a very hasty retreat when PoleDogSr (on his lead) snarled and lunged at him, cue the owner berating me for my aggressive dog "But he just wanted to play!" I said, and got ever more abuse, but never saw YobboDog off lead again. As soon as YobboDog retreated PoleDogSr was back to standing quietly by my side, with poor PoleFoster hiding between his legs.

It was one of only two times in his fifteen years that I ever heard him snarl, or be aggressive towards another dog.

Sorry @HappyThursdays, my rant wasn`t very helpful but it enrages me that people let their dogs behave that way.

My parents trained working dogs, Ive fostered many, many dogs and had my own working and pet dogs as an adult, and I have had a fair few fosters with behavioural issues. It should never become anyone elses problem when you have a dog who cannot behave with manners as you should be doing everything you can to make sure it doesn`t impact anyone else.

Of course there will be accidents, but for this dog to have done that twice is ridiculous.

No your post was useful as ever @PoleToPole

I agree - once I forgave but if it's an obvious problem that repeats itself and that others know about and you've done nothing, then that I think is not acceptable.

People have spoken to him apparently and he's done nothing. The dog walker I spoke to (who lives locally) termed him an 'irresponsible dog owner'.

I'm not local to the village (we've locked down at dp's place) so I'm less concerned with the politics and quite happy to sort this out head on (!).

We may be fostering other dogs later this year too (once dpup is an adult) so I'd like to deal with this before I'm walking more than one dog at a time.

Later next year - I'm already thinking that we are in 2021!

If you saw the look in this dog's eye, you would know what I mean. You know when dog's have that look when they are attacking that they mean business

Fair enough - nothing is as good as a first hand viewpoint.

I wish I knew the answer to getting other owners to take the request to keep their dogs under control seriously. All I've ever found to really work is a barage of shouting and swearing until it becomes less hassle to control the dog than to deal with me. But that is not pleasant so I tend to favour just walking where I am unlikely to see anyone, or only encounter sensible owners, or have plenty of options to change direction if I spot anyone.

No it was a good question @YourNutsMeLord and @Honeyhoops and probably why I posted the thread. Had he broken the skin twice and bitten him properly I would have already involved someone else I think. But it was definitely more than playing - it wasn't a puppy squealing as he didn't understand the rules, it was an aggressive act and definitely had the potential to be worse had I not been right next to him if that makes sense. It's hard to explain - but with a growling, snarling dog and knowing now (which I didn't know then) that he's bitten another dog on the hind legs, I don't think I assessed the situation wrong but I did think about it!

Ah I see. I don't doubt it was an act of aggression. But there are levels and so, possibly, an act that was not designed to injure - just designed to warn/frighten in some way.

Regardless, your puppy doesn't need those kinds of experiences, so you're right to question what can be done to make the other owner control their dog better.

Thank you @HappyThursdays . It is such a nightmare, even more so if you have a puppy or older dog you are trying to socialise/confidence build.

I am very concerned about PolePup, he is such a little thing, I have long since decided that with I would pick him up as soon as I see an off lead dog. That is not a perfect solution, and I am frequently berated for that too but frankly there are so many irresponsible owners that it is not worth taking the chance.

In a way it is easier here though, as if a dog is off lead anywhere I am there is a 100% guarantee that they are an irresponsible owner, and if they are irresponsible about that then no way am I chancing finding out what else they are irresponsible about when it comes to their dog.

My dogs are only ever off lead on our property, I will not go to dog parks, not sure about the UK but here they are the place to go if you want to keep your vet`s business flourishing.

The one thing I would suggest is that if you want to foster, make sure HappyPup is as bomb proof as possible first.
PoleDogSr and PoleDog were/are rock solid reliable and completely calm in a crisis, and that helped both me and my fosters massively, as even if my foster was freaking out, hurt, worried or anxious, I could rely on my older dog to sit and stay completely calm and still whilst I dealt with the foster.
It also gave a real confidence boost to anxious fosters, and helped them feel more at ease in the world. Plus there is the added bonus that the fosters can learn from your dog, so training can become much easier!

I dont get anywhere near as much hassle as friends with just smaller dogs, funny how so many irresponsible dog owners suddenly sober up with Ive got PoleDog (hes heavier than me) with me, theyre quite happy for their dogs to terrorise pups, elderly dogs (don`t get me started on that one!) and smaller dogs, but add a dog twice their dogs size to the mix and they have a u-turn in their thinking

Thanks @PoleToPole that's a really useful tip. We've been trying to be as proactive as possible with his socialisation (not helped by lockdowns!).

He's a working cocker so naturally a people pleaser and he has a best mate, a cockerpoo who is the same age and size as him who he sees a few times a week and literally spends an hour doing WWE style wrestling which is great for his doggy manners!

I'm really concerned about what will happen mid 2021 when a lot of the people who have taken puppies on in lockdown realise they can't handle them when they are back to work. I think spaniels/cocker mixes may be some of the biggest casualties as they are not easy dogs to be left alone!

@HappyThursdays

Your lab incident sounds similar to the experience I had with the lurcher. Whether it was "playing" or not it was nipping my cocker and being too aggressive, even though my dog was yelping the owner did nothing. I ended up having an argument with her as imo if her dog had done what it did to a smaller breed it would have caused injuries and she'd be responsible.

Lurcher owner now seems to keep her dog mostly on a lead, and always puts it on if she sees my dog so I agree with @YourNutsMeLord that having a right go at the owner often works.

I don't really think there's enough to report the owner for but I'd report or threaten to report if anything else happens.

Youre welcome <strong>@HappyThursdays</strong>, and yes, I have been worrying too. I often think people do not realise the huge commitment dogs are, my DC are much easier and less work, nowhere near as easy to train though! <img loading="lazy" class="inline-flex mumsnet-emoji" alt="Grin" src="https://www.mumsnet.com/build/assets/grin-D7Eg_B6y.png"> There seems to be a spate here of people getting Great Pyrs as they are such "big pretty dogs" <img loading="lazy" class="inline-flex mumsnet-emoji" alt="Hmm" src="https://www.mumsnet.com/build/assets/hmm-PR4o6B1t.png">. I love them, but Christ on a bike they are not easy dogs at all, and they take an absolutely enormous amount of work to rehabilitate if they are rehomed. PoleDog is one of the easiest Great Pyrs Ive ever had, and as a pup he was still a heck of a handful!

Thanks @Honeyhoops - the dog walker I spoke to said he was happy to support me in speaking to this guy because he has seen the lab do this to other dogs (and take a nip out of the Springer's hind leg). He felt it was time to do something about it so maybe I'll try and catch him tomorrow and we'll make a plan to speak to him together.

And it is brilliant that HappyPup has such a lovely best friend, PoleDogs best friend, besides PolePup (who can do no wrong in PoleDogs eyes) is a retired Belgian Malinois police dog, they like to just sit next to each other and watch the world go by.

Awww Belgian Malinois are such beautiful dogs. I used to foster Great Dane/ GD crosses and had a few Great Dane cross GSD that ended up looking like Belgian Malinois!

If he had intended to harm him, he would have done, I think. Probably more of a show of dominance than anything. Establishing a pecking order. Which is comforting in a way because at least you know the puppy is unlikely to come to harm but it can't be allowed to keep happening or you will end up with a reactive, traumatised dog. Or puppy will stick up for himself and shit will escalate.

As well as the excellent suggestions given by PPs, I have found it useful to get my 'phone out, look as though I m fiddling with it, then pretend to film the other dog. And its approaching owner. Then into a pocket and zip closed. Also, depending on breed, you can shout that it's a police dog puppy under initial training. Two useless women called their three collies away and hastily strode off after I did that.