Advise on this mixed breed please..

[Hmmmmminteresting]

We have an online meeting tonight with a breeder who has some 2 week old pups that we are interested in.
Mum is a Shih Tzu x Bichon
Dad is a Shih Tzu x Poodle

They want £2000 per puppy. They look adorable but I am very nervous about the fact that both parents are cross breeds already and not the same cross breed.

Would you buy one of these?

I havent had a dog for 10 years and she was a pedigree Cavalier King Charles. I really want to get this right.

Thanks!

@Veterinari

Size wise is perfect if you have small children

I'd also argue that a toy breed pup is much more likely to suffer injury from boisterous children than the other way around

I completely agree with this. We have seen many injuries to small dogs, mostly when they’re puppies, who have been stood on by children. People don’t always consider how often small dogs get under your feet and how bouncy they are. That mixed with small children isn’t always the best combination!

I mentioned having a Shih Tzu earlier and a 3 year old with autism. My son is very gentle natured anyway, but I absolutely wouldn’t recommend a Shih Tzu if a 3 year old is typically boisterous. The dog could literally sit in one hand when he was a puppy, I was actually nervous of hurting him myself accidentally.

The thought of my children hurting the dog is something we had given very little consideration to - only the other way around. I feel waiting a year or 2 will make a difference especially with my 2 year old.
It's funny, I've wanted a dog so much since August time, finally bit the bullet this week to get the wheel in motion since the rescue route wasn't going anywhere and in less than 24hrs mumsnet has put me off 😌 im not sad though, im glad I posted. So many things I hadn't considered when I thought I had it all covered.

@Hmmmmminteresting

The thought of my children hurting the dog is something we had given very little consideration to - only the other way around. I feel waiting a year or 2 will make a difference especially with my 2 year old. It's funny, I've wanted a dog so much since August time, finally bit the bullet this week to get the wheel in motion since the rescue route wasn't going anywhere and in less than 24hrs mumsnet has put me off 😌 im not sad though, im glad I posted. So many things I hadn't considered when I thought I had it all covered.

It's great you've been so open minded @Hmmmmminteresting

It's tricky - especially when pups are so blooming cute!
But the chances of having a good outcome with a healthy family pet (that won't be broken by your DC) are probably greater if you wait a little while.

I really hope you find your perfect pup when the time is tight.

you've done the right thing and the kids will be much more able to enjoy the dog when you do get one in a couple of years.

[quote righttothepoint]@Henrietty wrong[/quote]
What part’s wrong then?

scampsandchamps.co.uk/are-mixed-breed-dogs-mutts-healthier-than-purebred-dogs/

www.petmd.com/dog/general-health/dog-health-issues-do-mixed-breed-dogs-have-advantage-over-purebred-dogs

I do know a little something about dogs, I have 3 myself. In my personal opinion, based on being a veterinary nurse for 19 years and various studies I’ve read, overall cross breeds generally tend to have less genetic issues than pure breed dogs.

I got my pedigree dog through Pets4Homes, she's KC registered, from a family home, the sire is from a "famous" breeder. I'm still in touch with the breeder, puppy arrived vaccinated, wormed up to date and sleeping through the night.

Not all sellers on there are dodgy!

There will be lots of people on soon dating you should only but pedigree but I prefer a normal dog to one that has been overbred in a small gene pool to exaggerate certain features.

That depends on the breed, there is a hereditary condition in my breed but because both parents are KC registered they have to test negative for it in order to register, if they were cross breeding then there would be no requirement to test.

The thought of my children hurting the dog is something we had given very little consideration to - only the other way around. I feel waiting a year or 2 will make a difference especially with my 2 year old
I think 4 is a nice age myself.
My DS was 4 when we got our dog, now my youngest is 4 we were (pre covid) going to get another.

It really depends on the personality of the child but I really don’t think small breeds are a good match for very boisterous kids.

My youngest DS is extremely lively compared to my other two, all of my kids are good with the dog, including my youngest but he can be clumsy sometimes.

I don’t recall my other two ever hurting the dog, accidental or otherwise but my youngest has jumped down off the sofa and stood on her before (accidental - he didn’t realise she was lying there), he’s also run straight into her not looking where he was going.
If those incidents had happened to a toy breed, or worse a toy puppy I imagine we would have had fractures.

Like others, I think it’s so so important to meet the parents of whichever puppy you ultimately go for too.
Temperament is largely genetic.
My dogs mum had the loveliest, calm and gentle personality and my girl is lovely and gentle too.

We are getting a puppy in a couple of weeks from a KC breeder. £1200 and we've visited twice (would have gone again but lockdown preventing). We've not had to pay a deposit and will only pay when she is delivered (KC saying collections not recommended)

The breeder has provided all the health testing of mum and dad and they've been microchipped. The breeder also has a web cam on so we can 'see' them anytime and mum in and out with them.

We are lucky we've not had to wait too long but if you're waiting a year then get onto a breeders list would be my recommendation

@Henrietty
funny how many vets turn up on these threads.

the link you posted literally says they're not healthier and that many think tested purebred are, and that the author just randomly thinks mutts are good.

unless you have genetically tested each the lineage of the 4 crosses puppies/ parents/ grandparents could couldn't possible know what you are risking breeding into them or not. Whilst there may be some breeders of f1 crosses which have done this, it certainly isn't going to be the majority is it ..especially of mutts rather than a purposeful cross.

[quote righttothepoint]@Henrietty
funny how many vets turn up on these threads.

the link you posted literally says they're not healthier and that many think tested purebred are, and that the author just randomly thinks mutts are good.

unless you have genetically tested each the lineage of the 4 crosses puppies/ parents/ grandparents could couldn't possible know what you are risking breeding into them or not. Whilst there may be some breeders of f1 crosses which have done this, it certainly isn't going to be the majority is it ..especially of mutts rather than a purposeful cross.[/quote]
I’m not a vet, I’m a veterinary nurse, as I said in my previous post. Also, not really that funny that someone who works with animals would be interested in a thread about animals.

I also stand by my original statement - in general, cross breeds are very unlikely to receive a high dose of any specific dogs breeds genes, making them healthier overall. As you can read, I said in general. That doesn’t mean every single crossbreed is healthier than every single pure breed. It means what is says. I’m quite clear on the words ‘in general’ and ‘unlikely’.

What qualifications do you have to that make you so knowledgable about animal genetics?

Sorry op, forgot to say earlier but £2000 for a mixed breed dog is a ridiculous amount of money to pay.

a medical science degree and mphil in genetics

General means most, which again just isn't right..but this is beyond the point of the thread now as op isn't getting the dog.

@Hmmmmminteresting

The thought of my children hurting the dog is something we had given very little consideration to - only the other way around. I feel waiting a year or 2 will make a difference especially with my 2 year old. It's funny, I've wanted a dog so much since August time, finally bit the bullet this week to get the wheel in motion since the rescue route wasn't going anywhere and in less than 24hrs mumsnet has put me off 😌 im not sad though, im glad I posted. So many things I hadn't considered when I thought I had it all covered.

I am pleased you’ve taken the time to think this through. Combining a small fluffy thing with sharp teeth which is definitely going to poop and pee on the floor with a small human who is only just mastering walking about on said floor and will definitely be scared of said teeth within a week, is just a recipe for stress and headaches and definitely a top reason for puppies to be sold on or handed into rescue :(

Mongrels and crossbreeds are cheaper to insure due to them being less inbred on paper. Insurance companies will rinse you where they can do if they were more likely or equally likely to have health problems they would be jacking that up.

No one is saying they can’t have health problems. No one is saying they can’t have awful health problems or hereditary problems but they are less likely to than a pure bred due to inbreeding.

If you come from a family that only has incestuous relationships resulting in children for several generations, your gene pool is very small and any genetic issues can be watered down. This what some breeders do to their dogs and have done for many years. More are becoming aware to try and widen the pool within breeds so things like breathing issues and hip dysplasia are less guaranteed in future litters.

OP, I just wanted to say you sound like you will be a wonderful dog owner; you're clearly giving every aspect of it lots of thought. I think the mix sounds a good one for you and your family, but you're right to wait a year or two on a number of counts. I've had dogs since before having kids, and the difference in how my daughter acts now at 3 even compared to 6 months ago is massive. My dogs actively like her, whereas a few months ago one tolerated her and the other avoided her.
The other point that @icedaisy made is also super important. I show dogs so know a lot of people who breed. Most of the ones who I would buy a dog off have stopped breeding because there are so many people want a dog because they're working from home and bored without ever thinking about the future.
Also I'd advise getting a dog in summertime; remember those endlessly long winter nights where your baby woke every hour and it felt like dawn would never come? Exactly the same with a puppy!

Good luck in the future; you seem like a very balanced and thoughtful person and some puppy will be lucky to have you!

One thing on the “home environment “ thing, our pup came from a nice home environment. It was a puppy farm front
The puppy farmers are clever now and they ship the pups ( sometimes with mum, sometimes a random bitch) to houses for viewings.
Ours was a lovely older lady with her Grandchild there too - all total lies

@MrsJunglelow

would say a fully grown Shih Tzu/Toy Poodle/Bichon mix would be about a foot high and 10kg Doubt it, my collie is 15kg... As for that really quite rude comment about DHs uncle, I only mentioned it because I thought the fact it was one of the breeds mentioned was relevant. I’ve seen plenty of adult bichons (and Shih tzu and toy poodle) and all three are super small. I imagine they were all the same sort of size as puppies. I am very much in agreement with Veterinari here. If your children are very boisterous a toy poodle/bichon/Shih tzu/any other toy breed is not a good idea.

My boy is ideal weight (according to the vet) and he’s 12.1kg.

(The day we got him versus now, sorry about the feet!)

Totally understand the dog rescue situation. We wanted to and have been trying for months. So, we have bought privately. This does seem to be the expensive end of what's available but thats supply and demand unfortunately. The dog sounds a good mix of family friendly breeds and should be good with kids but you need to meet to see really. Also be aware that puppy farms are renting houses to look legit. Bastards. Good luck. I would never have spent what I did but missed my poor old dog so much so understand the need!

Are you sure he's not a miniature poodle cross @maxineputyourredshoeson ?

He's very large for a shihtzu or toy poodle, both of which would generally be less than 10kg

I think the problem with people shouting about how much it is / it is criminal / they paid X in 2016 is that put simply the price of puppies has gone up.

It’s the same with houses. Ours is on the market. It sold for £126000 on 1998. We bought it for £100,000 more ten years later. Because house prices went up. That’s how things go, sometimes. If people would rather not have a dog at all then that’s up to them, but I think it will be some time before puppies are cheaper TBH.

We’re paying £1200 for a pedigree from a KC Assured Breeder. £2k for a mongrel is outrageous. Never mind the potential risks of temperament and health issues.

No he’s a Shichon (Shih Tzu x Bichon Frise) we know both mum and dad - they are a friends family pet. Everything I’ve ever read says his weight should be between 9-15kg.

animalso.com/breeds/shichon/

@Hmmmmminteresting

The thought of my children hurting the dog is something we had given very little consideration to - only the other way around. I feel waiting a year or 2 will make a difference especially with my 2 year old. It's funny, I've wanted a dog so much since August time, finally bit the bullet this week to get the wheel in motion since the rescue route wasn't going anywhere and in less than 24hrs mumsnet has put me off 😌 im not sad though, im glad I posted. So many things I hadn't considered when I thought I had it all covered.

Honestly OP, I think this is the worst time ever to be trying to buy a puppy, so good choice to hold off a while.

Hopefully by the time your children are a little older, things will be easier to meet breeders, meet puppy's parents etc. and have a little less chance of being fleeced and/or ending up with an unhealthy pup.

Sorry that was in reply to @Veterinari

“Pretty much all puppies are small and breakable.”

My rottie at 9 weeks was the same size as an adult Lhasa apso, well bigger than 2 same size as the other, lol

So I mean, much bigger and less breakable than a toy breed puppy.