K9 trainer - is this normal?

[KurriKawari]

Lad across the road keeps dragging his dog onto the driveway whilst another hit wearing a shirt that says "K9 Trainer" repeatedly hits him with a large stick. They've done this three times already today and the dog is in so much distress. I've googled K9 Trainer and it's all about police/military dogs. I feel really sick with their behaviour today but realise I know nothing about dogs and their training.

That's absolutely not normal, and it's a criminal offence. I would be calling both the police and the RSPCA.

PS please film the two men to get evidence. There's cases of people being prosecuted on the basis of video evidence
www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/man-picks-up-dog-punches-18866848

Thank you. I did ring RSPCA but only noticed what it said on his shirt after. I managed to get a couple of videos of them hitting him which I've sent to them. He sounds in so much distress and was jumping up to defend himself and they kept hitting hit with the stick over and over again. He's in the back garden now and wont stop barking, genuinely feel like he's crying out for help. The RSPCA were lovely so hope they can sort it out.

Call the police

Fucking hell. No, this isn’t normal for military dogs

RSPCA are on it. And the lad doing the hitting has gone now.
Am in Birmingham and with last night's manhunt still going on not sure the police will have the resources today.

I have once before seen a van with "dog unit" on the side come to the property so maybe it is a police dog but doesnt excuse what they were doing to it.

@KurriKawari

RSPCA are on it. And the lad doing the hitting has gone now. Am in Birmingham and with last night's manhunt still going on not sure the police will have the resources today.

Report it anyway. And keep reporting it if you see it again. Get video evidence if possible and safe to do so. Unfortunately, without evidence the RSPCA can / will do very little as it will be denied.

@KurriKawari

I have once before seen a van with "dog unit" on the side come to the property so maybe it is a police dog but doesnt excuse what they were doing to it.

Police don't train their dogs like that. A scared dog won't work for you and an aggressive dog (which this kind of treatment can cause) is no good as a police dog. Problem is any bigger can set them up as a dog trainer - there's no qualification or registration and many of them are using methods (even ones less extreme than this) that are easily 30 years out of date.

Awful horrific behaviour.

Unfortunately some people who claim to be dog trainers use extremely questionable techniques which are aversive and can cause pain or discomfort. This is way beyond even that though and I hope the RSPCA are able to deal with the situation.

The only acceptable training methods IMO and in the opinion of most modern trainers and behaviouralists are positive reward based methods. I'm certain that the police, military, guide dogs etc all use these modern methods now- so being some sort of police dog is not an acceptable excuse.

@KurriKawari

I have once before seen a van with "dog unit" on the side come to the property so maybe it is a police dog but doesnt excuse what they were doing to it.

The police don't train dogs like that. Any police dog handler found doing that would be sacked for gross misconduct.

Absolutely call the police - I know there is a manhunt, but this is important too. It's a bit like people with heart attack symptoms avoiding A&E because covid...

I think on the surface it sounds absolutely horrendous, a pp is right in that for some bizarre reason the dog training industry is unregulated, however, is it possible you are possibly misinterpreting what you are seeing?

Sticks are a common part of bitework/protection sports, how do you know they were hurting or scaring the dog with it?

Dogs doing/learning bitework/protection training can be very vocal.
Excitement barking is higher pitched and some dogs whine with excitement aswell.
Did you see anything to suggest the dog was actually scared?

The dog repeatedly jumped up and wrapped his mouth around the man's arm. At which point the hit him more. Pretty sure he was scared.

For example:

Lad across the road keeps dragging his dog onto the driveway
What is meant by ‘dragging onto the driveway?’
Is the dog trying to get into the house/run away from man with the stick?
In which case yes I think RSPCA should be involved.
Or is the dog lunging and pulling trying to get to the man and the ‘trainer’ is pulling him to where he wants to be.
The former could just be excitement?

whilst another hit wearing a shirt that says "K9 Trainer" repeatedly hits him with a large stick
A common component of protection sport.
How do you know it is scaring the dog?

They've done this three times already today and the dog is in so much distress
If this is the case it’s disgusting and absolute abuse but what is it about the dog that is making you think ‘distress’

jumping up to defend himself and they kept hitting hit with the stick over and over again
Is he jumping out of fear or because he wants the sleeve (I presume they have a sleeve..)

He's in the back garden now and wont stop barking, genuinely feel like he's crying out for help
Or maybe a bit frustrated wanting to carry on training?

Don’t get me wrong if the dog is genuinely in distress I hope the men are severely punished and the dog taken away, I just wonder if misunderstanding is a possibility

The dog repeatedly jumped up and wrapped his mouth around the man's arm
At which point the hit him more. Pretty sure he was scared
That really isn’t evidence he’s scared!
You’d expect a dog protection sport training to repeatedly bite the sleeve and not let go.
I expect they aren’t really ‘hitting’ the dog at all

Thanks Borderstotheleftofme that's why I thought I'd ask on here because I know nothing about dogs. However, what would the dog need training for? They're a young couple with a new born baby, if the dog is too much for them to handle maybe give it to someone who can care for it properly rather than hitting it with a stick.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=rEck4ANqmMY
m.youtube.com/watch?v=VDSQizibm3s

However, what would the dog need training for? They're a young couple with a new born baby
They maybe bought it as a personal protection dog and it is being trained?
Or they may be training it for bitework competition like IPO or similar?

It really depends on exactly what you are seeing.

If it’s some amateur scaring the beejezus about of a young dog in an attempt to train it into a protection animal that is obviously despicable and something needs to be done.

But if it’s a professional, experienced company training a young dog out of working bred lines who was bought for that purpose and is having a great time training, then I don’t see any issue.

Lad across the road keeps dragging his dog onto the driveway
What is meant by ‘dragging onto the driveway?’
Is the dog trying to get into the house/run away from man with the stick?
In which case yes I think RSPCA should be involved.
Or is the dog lunging and pulling trying to get to the man and the ‘trainer’ is pulling him to where he wants to be.
The former could just be excitement?

Oops, MAJOR typo there 🤦🏻‍♀️
I obviously meant latter!!

IPO and Mondioring will use a stick and encourage bite work. Obviously if the dog was being beaten with a stick that is different.

The dog is not hit with the stick at all

The dog is not hit with the stick at all
True, but if you look at clips or see training sessions in action, it’s very easy to see how it can be misunderstood.

They are ‘touching/hitting’ the dog but light. They aren’t hurting the dog

I strongly suspect (and hope!) that what the OP has seen is a normal training session for a dog being trained in protection work and a dog that actually is having a great time.

Training sticks are usually foam and doesn’t hurt the dog. It shouldn’t be getting properly hit with an actual stick though

If it is IGP (what used to be IPO) training or for personal protection, they use soft bendy 'sticks', short whips which make a crack noise and slapsticks (to make a noise, not to hit the dog). It's part of the training for the bite-work element.

The dogs can get very vocal doing this (they're supposed to and are encouraged to be); they will also jump up and lunge and pull towards the helper, they really want to 'get' the guy.

Done properly by competent trainers it's quite a long process finessing drive and control and it's absolutely fine but if it's some eejit thinking he can just wind a dog up and let it go at someone it could be an issue. Let's hope it's not that!

My boss is a respected, reward-based (no cruelty) trainer in this field; it's fascinating to watch and the competitions are quite intense; there's a long and demanding obedience element too, it isn't just shouting and biting.