Puppy survival thread! July 2020

[Juiceey]

Roll up roll up... I'm a day late but here we are.

Latest update: Juiceypup is obsessed with DS's feet, who is now starting to get upset by it. He doesn't do it to anyone else, only him, and we don't know why. DS goes stock still as instructed but we have to prise his mouth open to get him off his toe. Has brought him to tears a few times.

I'm feeling so bad this morning, but fortunately Muckypup doesn't seem to be holding it against me - after all the barking and whining in the crate last night he slept through to 6.30am and has woken like a little sweetheart this morning. I lay awake thinking about why things were so bad last night. Firstly I fed him too many treats that weren't his usual, secondly ds woke him up late afternoon (unintentionally) as he went out for a run, thirdly he is teething so bad tempered because of that, fourthly he was overtired from a very long walk when it was too hot. Today therefore we are on a detox day where he is on plain food and simple treats, will be left to sleep as long as he wants and will be walked much less. I'll see how it goes.

Sounds like a good plan! We are going treat free too today, he's happy enough on his main food (purina beta) and his tummy doesn't seem to be great with cheese crumbs or puppy treats!

Hi guys, we're now on week 2 of having BonBon pup. It's going well, compared to what I expected. She's started sleeping for 6 hours in one go, which is a relief. And accidents are minimal now, but we are taking her out regularly. Struggling to crack the crate training. She won't settle and every time I've tried to ignore her a bit, that's the time she chooses to pee. If I take her from her crate outside, you can guarantee she doesn't need to go.

Mainly I wanted to pop on and mention what our trainer said about food. We have BonBonPup on a high protein food (Pure, 37%) and our trainer said to be careful. Any foods high in protein (eg. Working dog foods - often 40%+) can cause behavioural issues/biting/hyperactivity unless they are being worked appropriately. If we started having issues we should switch her to a lower protein food. Pups need ~27% protein, non working adults need 18%. She said ideally pups should have 27% protein and 2/3 carbs. Too much protein without using it as an energy source fully can also lean to pressure on the kidneys and joins. We're only on a high protein food now because she will work one day and we don't want to switch her too much if we can help it since it's 37% not 40%+!

Hope that helps some of you, if you are having trouble with behaviour. It might not be you or pup - it might be their food!!

@DoorbellsSleighbellsSchnitzel

I've been trying to keep up with this thread and actually write something for a few days now, but there's never any bloody time!!

@Southlondonchaos - when you put pup 'down for the night' in his crate early evening are you in the same room then (watching TV/eating dinner whatever) or do you leave the room then?

Also, those doing 'enforced naps' during the day, how are you getting them in to their crate? Mine won't touch his until around 1130pm, and even then it's begrudgingly. He dies usually stay then until 630am though so not complaining too much!

@OliveButler - the biting here is awful too. He properly lunged and latched on to my calf and punctured skin yesterday. He was ridiculously overtired, came in from playing/training with DH and just grabbed my leg. We've bought loads of long length toys, and braided old fleece blankets in to ropes but sometimes it seems that all he wants is a nice bit of flesh and the accompanying yelp! DC are rather outviff bybit all, I just have to keep reassuring them it'll get better.

@muckandnettles - mornings are my favourite. Between 630-830 I'm almost guaranteed snoozy snuggles and no biting. It's lovely.

@ShadowsInTheDarkness - we've got two cats too. They're clever enough to stay out of the way so far, and if I spot them I try to shield them so they can make it to the cat flap unhindered! I worry that he's going to start chasing tgem once he clocks them properly.

Can I ask what kibble everyone is using for their puppy food? He's on Purina at the moment but I'm not overly keen...

ShadowPup will go down for a the night early evening and we can stay in the same room, he's very good about sleeping through noise, I think because the DC don't understand how to be quiet and we have a cockerel that likes to stand underneath windows and doodle 😁

For enforced naps I use a piece of carrot. It's the only way to get him into the crate when he's overtired and wants to charge about like a maniac. He trots over to the fridge with me, races me to the crate and then I throw it in, he jumps in after it and shut the door.

He's on Millies wolfheart. I buy a couple of different feeds that were recommended on their website for his breed - riverside, farmers and hunter I think (he's a sprocker, his parents are a working cocker and springer so lots and lots of energy!!). The mixes I get have the same feeding guidelines so I mix them up in a big tub so the flavour isn't always the same. I use his kibble to train at mealtimes and then he has cubes of cheese for high value training like "drop" and recall. Have just ordered some liver treats for training around the cats. He has a carrot a day for the crate and usually a fair amount of banana, cucumber and the odd cherry tomato 🍅.

I can't tag, annoyingly I mumsnet app seems to let you tag everyone except the person you actually want to - but re the cat situation the dog training advice one on Facebook has a very good technique for cat introduction (which certainly doesn't involve shutting either in a cage) it's basically a case of bringing cat just in sight feeding both animals high value treats then removing cat again and repeat. Depending on the dog though if a cat runs some with extra high prey drive will never be able to overcome the temptation to chase, however I have a terrier who basically ignores the neighbourhood cats now and is learning to ignore flapping pigeons too so it can be done

No crate, but we say 'puppy quiet time', and direct him onto his bed and give him his antler and chew toy, if he falls to settle we wrap him in the blanket he got from the breeder with his mummy smell.

Sometimes we have to try a few times, and I start reading or working on my computer, as an additional cue that I'm not available for fun.

PuppyBonBon that's interesting about foods. I must admit that we haven't seen any of the issues described with our chap and I've just gone and checked the Millies site and two of the mixes we use are 30% and the other 37%. He is very much on the go when he's awake though. I do a lot of whistle exercises outside with him each day and while he won't be worked in the sense of hunting he will be going to agility with DS etc. Thanks for sharing though, something to bear in mind if we start to see any issues.

@PuppyBonBon that's a really interesting point about food - the Millie's that my pup is on is high protein, but then he is a working breed (though I don't think his family have worked for many generations!) But I'm having a rethink about everything at the moment so that is a really useful thing to bear in mind. Thank you!

The only other thing they said was to be careful mixing complete foods, we were originally using Dr Johns Puppy kibble for treats as it's what she was on at the breeders and have a bag left over. We were continuing to use it for all treats but the trainer said she was more likely to gain weight with mixing complete foods and using kibble as treats than she was if we used chicken. (Buy a whole chicken to roast and cut it into pea size pieces and freeze in daily amounts. 1 chicken lasts a whole week). Checked with the vet too and they said the same, only 1 complete food once a transition is finished. So we're using up the last of a small bag in kongs and then will stop using kibble all together as Pure is a dehydrated food. Treats will be chicken, sausage and dried liver going forward. She goes nuts for Banana, Apple and Carrot with peanut butter in Kongs so we can balance out protein with those. Though vet also warned too much banana could be bad, so she only gets half a banana every 4/5 days.

A puppy will only gain more weight if the owner doesn’t reduce the size of their meals when giving treats, not because someone uses kibble as treats. If you give an dog a chicken over a week those calories still have to be at an appropriate level for the dogs size/activity level.

There has been no link between hyperactivity and protein to be proven, however poor quality protein (plant based) isn’t ideal for dogs.

Unlike humans dogs use protein first where as we use carbs first, just like in humans poor quality carbs cause a blood sugar spike in dogs and any unused carbs are stored as fat.

As a cat owner first you have to be careful taking diet advice from a vet, ours was always trying to get us to feed our cat dry which is bad for kidney health, but the food they were pushing didn’t contained any dried meat or even meat meal. Cats are obligate carnivores! I have a friend who is a vet and unless they choose to specialise once qualified animal nutrition is a one off lecture provided by the big food producers e.g royal canin and we know the big producers are the ones making very poor quality food. It made sense when I thought about it, I wouldn’t trust a GP to write me a balanced menu so why would I with a vet?

I moved to a vet who actually understood feline nutrition and I have found one who has undertaken a lot of education in canine nutrition.

Yeah ShadowPup is definitely not in danger of being overweight. He's slim and leggy with a tucked in waist. Not underweight either, I checked! I must admit to generally doing my own research into feeds rather than being guided by vets as so often they stock a range of foods and recommend something that they happen to have in stock!

Same with the cats, I've always fed them well researched and high quality food and never just dry for boys etc and largely ignored the vets advice. 4 very healthy cats with amazing coats and no weight issues.

Pic of my nowhere near overweight pup 🐶 just because any excuse to show him off 😁

Chicken is a funny one as well. A lot of dogs have issues with it, and I've certainly noticed when pup was younger and we used chicken to incentivise toilet training it had a huge effect on his tummy, so I avoid it now.

We use his daily kibble allowance for training - as in each meal time is a training session with the clicker and his kibble, with a few extra bits of kibble in a pot by the door for clipping his lead on and off. I would imagine the risk of weight issues comes when you're feeding a full days meal allowance and then using kibble on top of that for training.
ShadowPup just burns everything off, he's completely full of beans or asleep with no in between at all.

@SimonJT, whilst you're correct it's overall calories, the sheer number of rewards needed at puppy stage to condition the desired behaviours, kibble will soon add up and very calorie dense compared to plain chicken. Also being a "low value" reward, it will often take longer to train with and not overcome distraction, and teach them to ignore commands.

As for vet qualification, yes a lot aren't specialised, but our practice runs the puppy pack with their canine specialist. Our trainer is also a qualified behaviourist and nutritionist. Funnily enough she did the latter because so many behavioural issues start with food. The point of my comments was to help other posters that diet is something to consider and will often be overlooked. We didn't realise it until our trainer mentioned it, and we also cross referenced with our vet to check! We've also done our own research on the back of this. We haven't instantly taken ours off high protein, she's doing well on it, but we're keeping an eye on it and will reassess as necessary, especially because of joint issues in labs. The jist of our research was don't feed working food to a family pet. I've seen this in an older lab too. 5 year old with early arthritis, swollen joints. Took him off working dog food and in 2 weeks his coat was better, his mobility improved and he started slimming down. Same net calories, better balance for his work load.

@PuppyBonBon, thanks for mentioning this. I have a non-working working breed. I remember now reading about the 18% protein for non-working dogs wrt to my breed in particular, but had completely forgotten about it so I'm glad you mentioned it. Pup's currently on a working dog puppy feed, it's 26% protein so sounds ok? I'll make sure I check the amount of protein in the adult dog version before moving onto it. Gah. It's a minefield.

@Emrysmcdogface so cute!

We use dried liver for high value treats or very occasionally a high meat content sausage. It depends what we are training what we use. Even for a tiny dog like mine though it would be pretty hard to get through her entire kibble allocation through training and for some reason she's so much more excited about it when being hand fed then in her bowl so it's good for many things. Tried the liver paste but it wasn't high value enough and she lost interest after a while

An exciting day here for our pup! He had his first bath with the shower attachment, and did really well. Then he spent twenty minutes going mad whilst my DH used the power washer. He's fast asleep now, worn out from all the excitement.

We've used Tails.com for food that's delivered, and apparently individualised for puppy's needs. I'm a bit sceptical, but he seems to be doing ok on it. Not sure about the delivery bit, I thought it was convenient at first, but now I don't know if I like the fact I can't just go out and buy more.

@OwlInAnOakTree yes 27% is ideal for puppies. One thing to check is quality of protein. That's where that allaboutdogfood website comes in so handy. Things like is is good quality meat or meat meal. Or as SimonJT said, vegetable protein (not great)

@marmite51 I know what you mean about delivery! Pure is delivered too. We've got it so we get the next bag as we start a new bag, so always a full one in the cupboard. It keeps our mind at rest. If we choose to switch later, I'm not fussed about wasting a bag if necessary. Pup's health over money. We do only get small bags though!!

Oooh! Shower! Sounds very exciting! I need to introduce puppy to that! Did you use dog shampoo, or just water? @marmite51

Shadowpup is adorable!

I used an RSPCA puppy branded shampoo that I picked up in B&M. Not too impressed with the smell, might see if I can get hold of something a bit posher 🤣

He's lovely and soft and fluffy though.

Toys - does anyone know of a toy that's very, very long and maybe rope-like? Pup loves his flirt pole, and, as much as playing with it as it should be played with, he also loves running around with one end of it in his mouth and the rest just trailing behind him. Is there something good for this that doesn't include a metal pole?

One of dpups favourite toys is a pair of DC's holey leggings that I cut in to strips and plaited. You can hide treats in the plaits to keep her busy too

@midnightstar66 thank you. I might try that. DS has a few pairs of holey jogging bottoms courtesy of OwlPup. 😄

Yes the leggings did suffer death by puppy also 😆

She also has a squirrel like this that she is fond of