Rescue dog growling at my kids :/

[FatBottomedGurl]

So, rescued a 4 month puppy from Spain. She arrived to her new home with us around 3.5 weeks ago. On her paperwork it says she is a Belgian Shephard Cross, which we were never advised of previously, although I assume its more of a guess than hard facts as she seems to have been found as a young pup on the street, along with two "brothers" who look very little like her. Having researched Belgian Shephard breed, they don't seem to make very good family pets and I think if they had advised of this, we may have went a different route, but anyways, she is here now and 85% of the time, a very nice dog. She is a little timid, calm, good with other dogs, doesn't chase the cats, knows all basic commands and toilet training is going great.

BUT she keeps growling at my kids, which is obviously worrying for me. I assume she is not used to kids/pre-teens (kids are 11 & 12 yo), and we are willing to work on this and hopefully help her adapt to new and probably scary surroundings. We have been working on the kids being in "her" space, and them touching her when she is eating, taking food bowl away, kids giving her treats etc and all of the "pack mentality" stuff such as them walking in the doors first, everyone being fed before the dog etc - everything that google has told me is a good idea. I have reached out to a friend of mine who is a dog trainer and she is giving free advice but cant do any hands-on classes due to lockdown limitations.

Not sure what I am asking here, I am worried but also not jumping to anything, I want to love this dog and have her love us. But, my kids are the most important thing and I need them to be safe. Any advice welcome.

[Sitdowncupoftea]

@FatBottomedGurl

So, rescued a 4 month puppy from Spain. She arrived to her new home with us around 3.5 weeks ago. On her paperwork it says she is a Belgian Shephard Cross, which we were never advised of previously, although I assume its more of a guess than hard facts as she seems to have been found as a young pup on the street, along with two "brothers" who look very little like her. Having researched Belgian Shephard breed, they don't seem to make very good family pets and I think if they had advised of this, we may have went a different route, but anyways, she is here now and 85% of the time, a very nice dog. She is a little timid, calm, good with other dogs, doesn't chase the cats, knows all basic commands and toilet training is going great.

BUT she keeps growling at my kids, which is obviously worrying for me. I assume she is not used to kids/pre-teens (kids are 11 & 12 yo), and we are willing to work on this and hopefully help her adapt to new and probably scary surroundings. We have been working on the kids being in "her" space, and them touching her when she is eating, taking food bowl away, kids giving her treats etc and all of the "pack mentality" stuff such as them walking in the doors first, everyone being fed before the dog etc - everything that google has told me is a good idea. I have reached out to a friend of mine who is a dog trainer and she is giving free advice but cant do any hands-on classes due to lockdown limitations.

Not sure what I am asking here, I am worried but also not jumping to anything, I want to love this dog and have her love us. But, my kids are the most important thing and I need them to be safe. Any advice welcome.

Personally I would ignored the judgemental ones on here.
You have only had the dog 3.5 weeks which is not long for such a young dog to settle into totally new surroundings and new people plus a whole new environment.
Spain has been on lockdown just like the UK so I suspect the pup has not seen many new people or been socialised very much and perhaps had little human contact let alone seen children?.
I can say from personal experience Belgian shepherds do make good family pets very easy to train, very obedient. I doubt anyone else criticising has had one of these dogs.
As for the police using them they use them due to obedience and intelligence.
Pet classes are starting up again in July with limited numbers due to Covid so it would be good to enrol in one ASAP for the socialisation aspect.
Expose the pup at its own pace to new things and people.
A lot of the advice on this thread I would ignore. I would give the dog more time and not be letting the kids take the food bowl off her when she's eating.
As for recues I have just got a rescue pup usually they are strict as to who they let have dogs as they don't want dogs in and out of rescues neither do they want a bad reputation. I'm not sure about rescues abroad. I would however contact them for the background of the dog.
If you are unsure of the breed DNA tests are available I have used one in the past its a simple cheek swab sent off to a lab. I'm not sure what sites people have been googling on to come up with the assumption on Belgian shepherds but I can tell you my kids from being very young were around one with no issues.
I suspect your pup is very nervous and dogs unfortunately cant talk they bark and growl.
I defiantly would give it more time and give the dog some mental stimulation and start training her.
You said you have booked a behaviourist wait until she comes and assesses the dog before you make any rash decisions about getting rid of it.
I have had my new rescue pup 4 weeks now and he's still settling in. I personally would not knock rescues but some do as rescues refuse them a dog. I presume you researched the rescue centre in spain as there will be reviews as they are run in most cases as charities.

[frostedviolets]

I can say from personal experience Belgian shepherds do make good family pets very easy to train, very obedient. I doubt anyone else criticising has had one of these dogs
With respect, you said your mum had one.
Do you know any apart from that specific one?
You don’t specify which one your mum had (there are 4 different types!) nor what line it was.

As for the police using them they use them due to obedience and intelligence
They pretty much only use the Malinois variant and the Dutch which I have heard some people argue is not a separate breed but a colour variant of Malinois.
If it’s purely down to obedience and intelligence then why aren’t Groenendaels and Turverens and Laekenois more widely used?
Why not border collies or labradors or other ‘obedient and intelligent’ breeds?

As for recues I have just got a rescue pup usually they are strict as to who they let have dogs as they don't want dogs in and out of rescues neither do they want a bad reputation. I'm not sure about rescues abroad. I would however contact them for the background of the dog
I have heard some real horror stories about abroad “rescues”
From filthy dogs dumped on new owners out of vans to dogs with such severe prey drive and aggression issues they cannot adapt to home life and are dangerous to diseases not known in this country being brought in because the dog wasn’t quarantined correctly to businesses posing as rescues and using the dogs to make profits.
It shouldn’t be allowed.
It’s doing nothing to tackle the wider issues in these countries.

I'm not sure what sites people have been googling on to come up with the assumption on Belgian shepherds but I can tell you my kids from being very young were around one with no issues
Belgian Shepherds are in the herding/pastoral group.
I have another herding breed and all of the herding dogs be they collies, kelpies, German/Belgian/Dutch Shepherds, they are all known for being sensitive and highly strung animals, they can be noise sensitive and reactive to sudden movement so they don’t always mix well with children.

My collie is good with children and I think they are lovely dogs but if anyone was to ask me if I would recommend a collie, or any herding breed for a family with young children I would always say no!

Specifically on the Malinois variant which I think is what a lot of people on here are talking about when they talk about ‘Belgian Shepherds’, there is a trainer called Nando Brown with Belgian Shepherd Malinois and I clearly remember watching one of his videos where he discussed how his Malinois was demonstrating predatory interest towards his baby and how he was working on it to keep his son safe and that it was a common problem with highly prey driven breeds like Belgian Shepherds.

I suspect your pup is very nervous and dogs unfortunately cant talk they bark and growl
I think so too but nervous dogs are often the most dangerous and sometimes nervous aggression can’t be fixed.
Though of course I hope in OPs case it can.

[Sitdowncupoftea]

@frostedviolets

I can say from personal experience Belgian shepherds do make good family pets very easy to train, very obedient. I doubt anyone else criticising has had one of these dogs
With respect, you said your mum had one.
Do you know any apart from that specific one?
You don’t specify which one your mum had (there are 4 different types!) nor what line it was.

As for the police using them they use them due to obedience and intelligence
They pretty much only use the Malinois variant and the Dutch which I have heard some people argue is not a separate breed but a colour variant of Malinois.
If it’s purely down to obedience and intelligence then why aren’t Groenendaels and Turverens and Laekenois more widely used?
Why not border collies or labradors or other ‘obedient and intelligent’ breeds?

As for recues I have just got a rescue pup usually they are strict as to who they let have dogs as they don't want dogs in and out of rescues neither do they want a bad reputation. I'm not sure about rescues abroad. I would however contact them for the background of the dog
I have heard some real horror stories about abroad “rescues”
From filthy dogs dumped on new owners out of vans to dogs with such severe prey drive and aggression issues they cannot adapt to home life and are dangerous to diseases not known in this country being brought in because the dog wasn’t quarantined correctly to businesses posing as rescues and using the dogs to make profits.
It shouldn’t be allowed.
It’s doing nothing to tackle the wider issues in these countries.

I'm not sure what sites people have been googling on to come up with the assumption on Belgian shepherds but I can tell you my kids from being very young were around one with no issues
Belgian Shepherds are in the herding/pastoral group.
I have another herding breed and all of the herding dogs be they collies, kelpies, German/Belgian/Dutch Shepherds, they are all known for being sensitive and highly strung animals, they can be noise sensitive and reactive to sudden movement so they don’t always mix well with children.

My collie is good with children and I think they are lovely dogs but if anyone was to ask me if I would recommend a collie, or any herding breed for a family with young children I would always say no!

Specifically on the Malinois variant which I think is what a lot of people on here are talking about when they talk about ‘Belgian Shepherds’, there is a trainer called Nando Brown with Belgian Shepherd Malinois and I clearly remember watching one of his videos where he discussed how his Malinois was demonstrating predatory interest towards his baby and how he was working on it to keep his son safe and that it was a common problem with highly prey driven breeds like Belgian Shepherds.

I suspect your pup is very nervous and dogs unfortunately cant talk they bark and growl
I think so too but nervous dogs are often the most dangerous and sometimes nervous aggression can’t be fixed.
Though of course I hope in OPs case it can.

@frostedviolets The post was addressed to the OP.

[frostedviolets]

Oh I am sorry, was I not allowed to post my opinion on what another poster wrote..?

[Barryisland]

Why not get a dna test done on your pup? It may give you some answers and is an interesting read.
I have used WISDOM for o e of my dogs but am going to use EMBARK for my other dog as it covers more breeds.
Good luck and enjoy your pup.

[Veterinari]

The dog's breed, which type of shepherd (if any) it might be and random poster's personal experiences with shepherd's aren't really relevant here. It's highly unlikely the OP has a pure breed of any sort, and whilst breed traits can sometimes be helpful, there isn't anywhere near enough info in a MN post for 'expertise' in Belgian shepherds to be particularly relevant to this issue, or for a DNA test to be helpful.

The issue is a scared pup resource-guarding and a worried owner who needs support.

Hope the behaviourist can help @FatBottomedGurl please let us know.

[RealLifeHotWaterBottle]

FatBottomedGurl Good luck for today, I hope you get some positive news and direction on what's next.

Please do let us know how you get on.

[FatBottomedGurl]

Thanks all, appointment us at 1pm today so I will let you know how it goes.

The last 2 days have been more positive. The kids have steered clear and only interacted with the dog when armed with treats etc. A couple occasions the dog has chosen to go nearer the kids and gave them a sniff/brought a toy to them. She has also been wagging her tail when they come into the room. Very small things and not a reflection on her longterm future with us but small positives none the less. We shall see what the expert says today.

[frostedviolets]

Hope all goes well 🤞🏻

[Medievalist]

Oh that sounds very encouraging op. I do hope things continue to improve and that you get some good advice and help today

[Sitdowncupoftea]

@FatBottomedGurl

Thanks all, appointment us at 1pm today so I will let you know how it goes.

The last 2 days have been more positive. The kids have steered clear and only interacted with the dog when armed with treats etc. A couple occasions the dog has chosen to go nearer the kids and gave them a sniff/brought a toy to them. She has also been wagging her tail when they come into the room. Very small things and not a reflection on her longterm future with us but small positives none the less. We shall see what the expert says today.

Let us know how you get on. I would ignore the judgemental and snide comments. You may find a dog forum more helpful with future questions with people who have experience of dogs and behaviourists that will answer your questions on this specific breed.
www.forum.breedia.com/dogs/belgian-shepherd-dog-malinois/
I personally can't knock the breed and would give the young puppy a little more time to come around.
However that is entirely your decision. Consider a DNA test especially if the dog is from abroad as the dog could be a mix of any breed. Sometimes dogs looks are deceiving and unless the recue has both parents you wont entirely know. Good luck with your pup and regardless of some opinions on here you did rescue an unwanted puppy from a rescue rather than lining a breeders pocket.
Fingers crossed it all works out for you.

[Medievalist]

@Sitdowncupoftea

Could I make a very polite plea that you don't keep quoting entire posts? It's unnecessary and irritating when you're viewing on a phone and have to scroll through loads of stuff you've already read. No need for example to quote the whole of the op when you first comment.

Many thanks

[MrsVeryTired]

That sounds good OP, wishing you well

[Sitdowncupoftea]

@medievalist The post is quoted as its addressed to the OP. Unfortunately scrolling is part of the process whether you have read it or not.

[FatBottomedGurl]

Today's session with the behaviourist was very positive. She observed all the interaction and asked key questions. She offered personalised advice and answered all questions. She also helped us look for the best food options for the dog.

She says she does think it is fixable, as the dog isn't actively scared or aggressive with the kids. It seems that the dog reacts when the kids have been seeking her to play when she is relaxing. So, the kids have been educated on what they should be doing and they seemed to absord it better as it was an expert talking to them as opposing to boring old mum. The trainer also got us doing some practical work, learning some new cues where the dog will come when called at a certain word and follow the kids to the kitchen (to get treats). This will help the kids to be able to control where she is in the house without having to get close to the dog or approach her. So, if we keep working on this she will soon learn that the kids are the givers of tasty things and fun (fingers crossed).

So, we have homework and a much more positive outlook. She found the dog to be quite confident, but in need of finding her place in the home. Noises, experiences, textures etc are all new to her and we have been reminded to give her space to explore these things in her own time.
We have been given good advice on how to deal with things if the dog does growl again. We have work to do, and Im not expecting it will be a quick fix. We need a family pet, that we can (eventually) be comfortable around and all members of the home can interact with and be able to take out to the garden for wees etc. The trainer believes this is achievable with the right training and effort.

We will give it a week or so and then follow up with the trainer. Possibly some more sessions to follow where we learn some enrichment games for her.

[Medievalist]

@Sitdowncupoftea

I'm not sure you understand how Mumsnet works. You initially quoted the entire opening post - there's no need for that. Unless you indicate that you're responding to another poster, it's assumed that your comments are directed at the op. So no need to repeat the whole thing!

In addition, it's perfectly acceptable for people to talk to each other on a thread. So if you say something to the op, it's fine for someone else - eg frosted violets - to comment on what you have said.

[Medievalist]

All very positive op. Sounds like you're all prepared to put in the effort to make this work.

[Veterinari]

I'm not sure @Sitdowncupoftea understands how Mumsnet or dog behaviour works. Weird how there are posters slagging off the advice on this thread when the reality is it's resulted in the OP reaching for RL behavioural support and getting the help she needs....

Anyway, I'm really glad you've made some positive steps OP- dogs are always work even when they don't have difficult backgrounds and it sounds like you and your DC are prepared to try and help DDog as much as you can and that's great. It seems she's already responding too Fingers crossed for a positive outcome.

[RealLifeHotWaterBottle]

FatBottomedGurl That sounds really positive! The key now will be to consistently follow the advice and hopefully see good progress

[TimeWastingButFun]

Please don't let your kids be the ones to experiment with taking food away from a large, touchy dog.
Maybe you need to accept this was a mistake. 🙈🙈

[FatBottomedGurl]

@TimeWastingButFun I think if you were to read the full post you would see this was stated early on and I have since had professional behaviourist sessions.

[Sitdowncupoftea]

@Veterinari I'm not sure you understand what being polite and manners are. Some of us are experienced with dogs and don't need to drag others down to try prove it.

@FatBottomedGurl Glad you have a result stick with it.

[FatBottomedGurl]

@Sitdowncupoftea Thankyou, appreciate your advice & input very much. We are optimistic. I may just get "Leave the dog alone", "Practice the 3 P's" and "Safe space" put on a record and play it on a continuous loop. Children are much harder work than dogs!!

[pigsDOfly]

FatBottomedGurl Well that all sounds very positive with the behaviourist.

Lots to do and lots to look forward to hopefully.

Good luck.

[YgritteSnow]

Got a photo OP? I'd love to see her. My parents have always had Belgian Shepherds - Groenendaels.