Rescue dog growling at my kids :/

[FatBottomedGurl]

So, rescued a 4 month puppy from Spain. She arrived to her new home with us around 3.5 weeks ago. On her paperwork it says she is a Belgian Shephard Cross, which we were never advised of previously, although I assume its more of a guess than hard facts as she seems to have been found as a young pup on the street, along with two "brothers" who look very little like her. Having researched Belgian Shephard breed, they don't seem to make very good family pets and I think if they had advised of this, we may have went a different route, but anyways, she is here now and 85% of the time, a very nice dog. She is a little timid, calm, good with other dogs, doesn't chase the cats, knows all basic commands and toilet training is going great.

BUT she keeps growling at my kids, which is obviously worrying for me. I assume she is not used to kids/pre-teens (kids are 11 & 12 yo), and we are willing to work on this and hopefully help her adapt to new and probably scary surroundings. We have been working on the kids being in "her" space, and them touching her when she is eating, taking food bowl away, kids giving her treats etc and all of the "pack mentality" stuff such as them walking in the doors first, everyone being fed before the dog etc - everything that google has told me is a good idea. I have reached out to a friend of mine who is a dog trainer and she is giving free advice but cant do any hands-on classes due to lockdown limitations.

Not sure what I am asking here, I am worried but also not jumping to anything, I want to love this dog and have her love us. But, my kids are the most important thing and I need them to be safe. Any advice welcome.

[Veterinari]

I will 100% be looking into other training options available to me whilst lockdown is ongoing.

Great

In the meantime please do read the links/resources I've shared.

Please ensure your pup has a safe haven (quiet comfortable bed, out of the way) she can retreat to undisturbed and be very clear with the kids that it is off limits to them. Ditto when she is eating. The must not go near her. Successfully integrating a dog into a family is as much about training family members to be consistent and stick to the rules as it is about training the puppy.

Use reward-based training to teach her tricks and manners - walking to heel (train using positive reinforcement not lead yanking) and recall are especially important.
m.youtube.com/channel/UC5nvaKq4_l25et0ysZByaig


Train her to give up her toys in trade for a treat

You could also try clicker training with her. The kikopup channel on YouTube is excellent.

You'll need to socialise her (see dogs trust website resources) and ensure she's comfortable having her mouth feet bottom and ears touched in preparation for any vet visits.

[Medievalist]

I think they fury' op is because most people feel it's basic common sense not to remove food from a dog when it's eating 🤷‍♀️.

But you're obviously keen to do what's right for your dog and I hope you'll follow Veterinari's advice. As to behaviourists, I'd have thought you'd be okay to get one in now. We've actually got one coming this afternoon for one of our dogs - also a rescue - with recall issues which we're struggling to resolve.

[FatBottomedGurl]

@Veterinari Thanks, lots of valuable advice. I'm sure the kids will be totally understandable about leaving the dog alone and letting her come to them. However, how does it work with the kids walking the dog/taking her into the garden for a wee? None of the growling has occurred in these circumstances but I am unsure now what the correct tactic is for the kids putting her collar/lead on etc?

[pigsDOfly]

Actually, prompted by MrsVeryTired, I've just re-read you OP and from the sound of it you actually just need to find a decent trainer, rather than going down the behaviourist route.

A trainer, one that uses reward based training and steers well clear of all that pack rubbish, will teach you how to train your dog.

Anyone who talks about pack behaviour or punishment needs to be avoided like the plague.

What do you think is going to happen if the dog goes through a door first, or is fed before anyone else? It's nonsense.

[Veterinari]

We are "pack training owners" and it has worked perfectly for us for over 50 years. Moat people don't like it now but each to their own.

It works only because there are consistent rules/expectations and because you've been very lucky with the temperaments of the dogs you have. Not because your dogs understand 'pack theory' which is an artificial human construct.

I too remember training dogs like this in the 80s, I too was lucky. It hasn't stopped me from learning though, and I'm very glad I'm not still using techniques from 40/50years ago. Behavioural science has moved on.

With a more anxious/traumatised dog like the OP's its a disaster as her OP shows. In many dogs the misapplication of 'pack theory' and dominance leads to aggression often with life-changing impacts for dogs and children. It's easy to say 'each to their own' when you don't really understand what you're doing or the impact your 'advice' can have. All options are not equal.

[pigsDOfly]

Nothing wrong with the children putting the collar and lead on and taking her in the garden.

Collar on, give a treat and a 'good girl'.

Just don't do thing that would annoy any normal animal or person.

[LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett]

Have the kids call the dog, rather than them approaching her. Collar on, good girl, wee treat, off they go as pp has said. Think about the dog going to them, not them going to the dog.

Rescue dogs can take a long time to settle - it took our dog a full year to properly chill and he'd come from a loving home.

Please re-educate yourself about a growl, it's her way of saying 'please stop that'. Listen to her and stop doing things that make her growl!

[Veterinari]

@FatBottomedGurl

Those examples are usually low risk.
Put yourself in the dog's 'paws'

If you're eating your dinner and someone disturbs you/takes it away it's annoying.

If you're resting in your own beds and someone disturbs you, it's annoying.

If someone calls you over and gives you a treat that's nice.

If they put on your lead and use that treat to encourage you outside (no yanking!) that's nice.

Basically you want to maximise the nice interactions and stop the irritating ones. Ensure you supervise all the time.

You want to be the source of all good things for your dog and build a positive relationship. Of course that still means there are rules - pup must learn to behave appropriately to get the reward (calm, gentle behaviour)

These articles explain it well
www.apbc.org.uk/pet-owner-article/learn-to-earn-is-nothing-in-life-free/

drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/the-learn-to-earn-program/

drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/the-learn-to-earn-program-implementing-the-program/

In a shepherd breed you'll also need to work on reactivity (not yet but later on)
And these are helpful:
www.battersea.org.uk/pet-advice/dog-care-advice/my-dog-wont-settle-teaching-your-dog-be-calm-and-relaxed

www.akc.org/expert-advice/training/teaching-your-pup-self-control/

[tabulahrasa]

I wouldn’t let DC of that age walk a dog alone though tbh...outside of the garden I mean. Too many other things they’re then responsible for - other people’s dogs for instance.

[LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett]

@tabulahrasa good point. I'd say my rescue is as good as it gets but I won't let DS14 walk him alone as there's always that question mark about other dogs. (And I'm pretty sure DS wouldn't pick up the poo, but that's another thread.)

[joystir59]

All dogs need a space/bed which isn't invaded by anyone, where they feel safe to relax and sleep without interference. They also will often get aggressive if food is taken away from them. You are asking to be bitten if you persist with these behaviours.

[TheVanguardSix]

We have been working on the kids being in "her" space, and them touching her when she is eating
This is how I got bitten when I was younger.
Your kids are cruising for a bruising. Don't invade a dog's feeding space, especially a dog that has likely been starved. The dog will see you and your kids as threats to her food supply and can bite to defend her grub, even if your kids are being kind and gentle. Feed the dog, leave her to it to eat alone.
The kids should be in another room. Chum time is chum time. Give the dog space for that.

[TheVanguardSix]

LonnyVonny solid advice!

[pigsDOfly]

Remember the old expression OP 'let sleeping dogs lie', it's very sound advice.

[vanillandhoney]

[quote FatBottomedGurl]@Veterinari Thanks, lots of valuable advice. I'm sure the kids will be totally understandable about leaving the dog alone and letting her come to them. However, how does it work with the kids walking the dog/taking her into the garden for a wee? None of the growling has occurred in these circumstances but I am unsure now what the correct tactic is for the kids putting her collar/lead on etc?[/quote]
Your children really shouldn't be doing those things with a nervous rescue dog, especially not with one who has already displayed some serious discomfort around how she's being treated.

Please, please don't let your children walk the dog alone. I'm a dog walker and I cringe when I see young children in charge of dogs with no responsible adult anywhere to be seen. How would a 12yo cope if the dog slipped her lead and bolted? Or what if she got injured? What if the puppy was off-lead and refused to come back and approached another on-lead dog who was injured or aggressive?

Please don't but your children in that position. As an adult, you need to take responsibility for all the walks. By all means bring the children and let them hold the lead, but you need to be right there to intervene if things go wrong. Because puppies are unpredictable and can jump up, bark, lunge and do all sorts and I wouldn't trust an 11 or 12yo to know what to do in that situation, especially when none of you have had a dog before and she's already displayed nervous tendencies.

[steppemum]

A dog growling, is telling you that something is wrong.
You need to try and find out what is upsetting the dog. Don't teach the dog not to growl, then he has no way to tell you he is unhappy.

Teach the dog and the kids that his space is sacrosanct. When he is in his bed, you should not approach him or stroke him or touch him. Obviously as the dog relaxes with you this is less strict, I often give mine a tummy rub when he is in his bed, but I am reading his body language and he is relaxed and saying play with me. When he isn't doing that, I give him his space.

No-one should take food away from a dog (or a toy for that matter). Especially a rescue who may have been hungry in the past. As he relaxes into your house, he will learn that you are not going to steal his food. Teach him to 'leave it' or 'drop' if he has something he shouldn't. Do this with reward based training with something like a ball. Food should be a safe place.

teach your kids to follow the simple rule PPP when approaching him. Please = (with a strange dog this means ask the owner) With a new dog to the house it means ask the dog! it means basically let the dog know you are coming to stroke him, don't surprise him.
Pet = stroke him starting at his shoulder. Don't approach from the front into his face, but the side, shoulder to tail.
Pause = pause regularly and see if he wants you to continue.

Don't hug the dog, that is scary. Let the dog come to you, be gentle.

[steppemum]

Sorry I see other posted the same thing while I wa typing!

[fivedogstofeed]

We have been working on the kids being in "her" space, and them touching her when she is eating, taking food bowl away

It's already been said but truly this is one of the worst things you could do to a new puppy.

If she is indeed a Belgian shepherd then it can be a tricky breed and unsuitable for a lot of normal homes. Even at puppy stage they can be extremely full on.

Can you post a picture?

[namechange30000]

Don't touch her or her food when she's eating.

Imagine someone grabbed your plate of food whilst you were eating.

She's growling as a warning.

[LochJessMonster]

Let’s remember this is a 4 month old puppy.
Most puppies no matter where they’ve come from go through a ‘growly/grumbly’ stage.

Make notes of the specific situations in which she growls.
Can you give us some examples?

Feeding time should be left alone. If you need to touch/move her food bowl, then you get a tastier treat, call her over and then move the bowl.

Get some tasty treats and help the children teach her simple manners, sit/paw/come etc

The dog honestly doesn’t notice who goes through doors first or who eats first, however it is good training to make sure she doesn’t rush through an open door.

Again, you can involve the children with this. Stand with the dog on a lead about 2m from a closed door. Ask your child to slowly open the door. If the dog attempts to go towards it, close the door. Repeat. Reward dog when she is sitting/standing calmly whilst the door is open. Then a cheerful ‘let’s go’ and walk through the door.

At 4months old you do not have a lost cause. You have a bit of a confused puppy who is growing up, experiencing new things.

With the right training and advice you can have a lovely family friendly dog.

[WhoWants2Know]

One thing that you mentioned was your kids giving the dog treats, and this is actually a good idea. Try to link the treats to desirable behaviour wherever possible.

Communication is one of the the most important things in dog-human relationships. If a dog feels like he understands what is asked of him, he feels more confident. Likewise, the kids need to learn the dog's body language and what he is saying to them. Growling just means "I'm uncomfortable with this situation," and it's very important that everyone listens to that message and doesn't punish the dog for growling. Otherwise, if the dog learns that growling doesn't work, he's just going to bite instead.

[FatBottomedGurl]

She is not growling only in response to the kids touching her food etc; that was (admittedly now with advice) a stupid way to proceed but I am indeed inexperienced and only trying to get things right. If the charity had disclosed the potential breed to us prior to adoption, we would have had opportunity to research and likely went a different route. I have contacted the charity; they have read it and not responded. Its been hours and no response, so thats not ideal. I have also reached out to Belgian Shephard rescues for advise - not for rehoming but for breed specific advice. I have contacted 4 trainers today and await responses from them all.
Examples of growling:
*On one occasion my son approached her when she was in her bed playing with a toy and she growled quite forcefully.

*This morning, my daughter was calling her to come downstairs (she was in my bedroom). The dog was laying down and ignoring my daughter when being asked to "come". My daughter stepped forward (genuinely not aggressively, just a step), the dog stood and growled. My daughter left the room. When she came back in, my dog immediately started growling before my daughter had moved at all.

*There have been other occasions where my son has entered the living room and she has growled and snarled as soon as she hears him coming downstairs. It concerns me a great deal that my children entering rooms seems to trigger her.

*We were at a family get together at the weekend and another family dog sniffed a bone she was chewing. She snapped at the dog (understandably, not so concerned about that), but an adult family member was in the middle of them and if they hadn't moved so fast, almost certainly would have been bitten.

Its not only reactions to the kids doing things, it seems to be their very presence in the house causes her to be unsettled.

[vanillandhoney]

Its not only reactions to the kids doing things, it seems to be their very presence in the house causes her to be unsettled.

If you've been encouraging them take away her food and interfere with her meals, I'm not honestly not surprised that this is her reaction. There does seem to be a bit resource guarding going on - but this is probably because she's had to get used to having precious things taken off her, so of course she's going to do what she can to protect her valuable items (her bed, her toy, her bone) and her personal space.

I really don't want to sound harsh but you clearly need professional help with this dog before things escalate further. I think for now you need to keep your children well away from the dog, though. Separate spaces for both - you need to do all the feeding, toilet breaks and interaction until you can get the help of a professional. You need to keep both your kids and your dog safe.

[tdm1]

If she sees your children as the creatures who threaten her food, her bed, her space, I can understand why she'd start growling at them to keep away even if they're not doing that. You've been inadvertently teaching her to see them as a threat

[PalTheGent]

She is not growling only in response to the kids touching her food etc

Yep, I think people have been a bit quick to jump to resource guarding, tbh. Probably because it's relatively common, fits the brief description here and provides a neat explanation. However, it's not quite so common in very young dogs and there are multiple things that could be causing this - and combos of things. Which is why having someone SEE the dog is the very best way, and why you cannot fix it with advice over the internet.

So much of 'diagonising' the issue coms down to seeing the tiny details that are lost in online descriptions.