Rescue dog growling at my kids :/

[FatBottomedGurl]

So, rescued a 4 month puppy from Spain. She arrived to her new home with us around 3.5 weeks ago. On her paperwork it says she is a Belgian Shephard Cross, which we were never advised of previously, although I assume its more of a guess than hard facts as she seems to have been found as a young pup on the street, along with two "brothers" who look very little like her. Having researched Belgian Shephard breed, they don't seem to make very good family pets and I think if they had advised of this, we may have went a different route, but anyways, she is here now and 85% of the time, a very nice dog. She is a little timid, calm, good with other dogs, doesn't chase the cats, knows all basic commands and toilet training is going great.

BUT she keeps growling at my kids, which is obviously worrying for me. I assume she is not used to kids/pre-teens (kids are 11 & 12 yo), and we are willing to work on this and hopefully help her adapt to new and probably scary surroundings. We have been working on the kids being in "her" space, and them touching her when she is eating, taking food bowl away, kids giving her treats etc and all of the "pack mentality" stuff such as them walking in the doors first, everyone being fed before the dog etc - everything that google has told me is a good idea. I have reached out to a friend of mine who is a dog trainer and she is giving free advice but cant do any hands-on classes due to lockdown limitations.

Not sure what I am asking here, I am worried but also not jumping to anything, I want to love this dog and have her love us. But, my kids are the most important thing and I need them to be safe. Any advice welcome.

[LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett]

To be fair OP, I'm not at all convinced the rescue knows what it's doing. The rescue we got DDog from always fosters first, and especially dogs with an unknown history, and their follow up is brilliant. We've had the dog for four years now and I know if I called them tomorrow they'd pick up.

A behaviourist is definitely the way to go, meantime separate them as much as possible and and start to do some of the positive association things mentioned on thread.

[steppemum]

I’m going to go against the grain here and say that you should ask the rescue people to take the dog back. You’ve potentially got a large, aggressive dog that requires a lot of work and attention for years. It’s not your fault that you aren’t the right owners and I’m shocked that this dog has been given to you - it sounds like a dog for experienced owners. It doesn’t sound like you will make the dog happy or it will make you happy. Lesson learnt. Lots of people on these threads are very into dog behaviourists / don’t give up etc etc but that may not be enough. You are allowed to give up if you think that is the best option, I’m sure you would do it sadly.

I am leaning towards this.

It may be possible to train this dog. But if it is a large nonfamily friendly breed, is it right for your family?

We have a rescue. We rescued him from a British based rescue, who have their dogs in foster homes until rescued. the foster home was able to giver us a good account of what sort of dog he is.
Prior to adopting him, we fostered dogs for the rescue, and I could tell you all about the dogs we fostered, and what sort of dogs they were. That is a great way to get a rescue.
Unknown shipped in from overseas with no idea of breed or potential size etc, that is not a good way to get a rescue.

It is OK to reconsider, the kids do have to be the priority, by all means try a behaviourist, but it is OK to say that this is not what we thought we were getting.

[FatBottomedGurl]

Hi, appreciate all the comments people are still taking the time to post.

To update, we have a behaviourist booked for Saturday afternoon. I had a long conversation with her and it wasnt the sunshine and rainbows outlook I suppose we wanted to hear. By all means, its worth the time and money to get an actual meeting with her and get some personalised advice, but she did say she had has a few dogs who were exhibiting similar and it didnt have happy endings. She did balance it by saying she has had ones that work out fine, but she has also had 3 dogs where the owners were fantastic, did everything asked of them, transformed their homes into zones for the dogs etc but sadly the dogs did have to be PTS because even after all that, they progressed to biting ( 2 of the 3 were from foreign charities). So, she has been upfront with us about manging our expectations.

We will have the appointment on Saturday and see where we go from there. I would love to be confident that this dog will become a wonderful addition to our family, but currently that feels like a stretch. We shall see....

[Veterinari]

Well done @FatBottomedGurl

She is right to manage your expectations. Dealing with behavioural problems requires long term management. But don't give up hope yet!

This is one of several reasons why so many of us are often negative about charities that bring dogs in from overseas. I know you're friends with the owners of the charity that rehomed to you and I'm sure their intentions are good, but the reality is that they often cause heartbreak for other by rehoming irresponsibly.

Fingers crossed it works out, please keep us updated

[Ihaventgottimeforthis]

Good luck and I hope it does work out well, but even if it doesn't, the behaviourist's evidence has at least given you reassurance that it wasn't anything that you have necessarily done wrong that has caused this behaviour.
It probably is just a sad outcome of her very difficult start to life.

[pigsDOfly]

Yes, I hope this works out for you, I really do.

Your behaviourist sound sensible and realistic.

Taking an animal off the streets and trying to turn it into a pet is fraught with potential difficulties. Sometimes it works, sometimes, unfortunately the animal is just not able to adjust.

Wish you luck.

[frostedviolets]

So, rescued a 4 month puppy from Spain
I’m not going go into all the reasons why but I think to buy a dog, especially a street dog that hasn’t been around people/in a home without seeing it first is beyond stupidity.
I wish it wasn’t allowed.
It’s not helping the problem in these countries.

Having researched Belgian Shephard breed, they don't seem to make very good family pets
Depends on their breeding, they are sheepdogs ultimately though the herding breeds can have some unique foibles and can be trickier than some other breeds imo.

We have been working on the kids being in "her" space
How?

touching her when she is eating, taking food bowl away
This is more likely to cause resource guarding than fix/prevent it.
She needs to associate human presence at the food bowl with pleasurable things, like special treats she would never normally get for example.
Having her dinner taken away and being fussed with at dinner time is stressful.

kids giving her treats etc and all of the "pack mentality" stuff such as them walking in the doors first, everyone being fed before the dog etc
I do insist on going through doors/stairs first as it’s safer.
I think the other pack theory stuff like eating first and no dogs on sofas is good if you have a super confident, bolshy personality of dog who starts to control resources and needs reminding that you tell them what to do not the other way around.
But it doesn’t sound like your pup is that way at all, you said she was timid.

[frostedviolets]

I commented without reading the whole thread, now that I have, I would rehome this dog immediately.

Thus taking a space away from yet another British dog as I imagine the god awful abroad charity won’t take any responsibility

It sounds like she is frightened of your kids and views them as a threat.

The herding breeds generally, don’t always do very well with children because they tend to be high strung to varying degrees and sensitive.

To be snarling and growling like you describe at 16 weeks, I’m not a professional, but I’d find that really alarming.

[Medievalist]

It was unbelievably irresponsible of the rescue to not make sure the dog was going to an appropriate environment and one where it would be cared for by people who knew how to look after a puppy, never mind understand the complex needs of this particular fella.

We currently have dogs from two well-established UK rescues. In each case we were given honest information about the dog's background and temperament. We were also 'interviewed' in our own home to make sure we were a good match and discuss how we would care for the dog. We also had access to help and advice from both charities as and when needed during the settling in period.

[Sitdowncupoftea]

Belgian shepherd's can make wonderful pets. The dog is only young and is in new surroundings and you have only had it a few weeks. Puppy classes are starting up again in July so sign up for one now. In the meantime you have only had the dog a few weeks. If its only 4 month old it's very young. Start training but don't expect too much. I doubt at that age you need a dog behaviourist. Set some boundaries and keep the kids away from the dog at feeding times and see how it goes.

[newbathroomforme]

*"Having researched Belgian Shephard breed, they don't seem to make very good family pets
Depends on their breeding, they are sheepdogs ultimately though the herding breeds can have some unique foibles and can be trickier than some other breeds imo."8
We know someone who's an expert on malinois which is a Belgium shepherd. Their job apparently was not to heard sheep but to guard them and the farmer. From everything he says they are tricky and not the ideal dog for the first time or inexperienced owner.

[frostedviolets]

We know someone who's an expert on malinois which is a Belgium shepherd
Yes, Groenendael, Turveren, laekenois and Malinois.
I knew that.

Their job apparently was not to herd sheep but to guard them and the farmer
I didn’t know that.
I thought they were originally sheepdogs but I suppose a farm guard does make more sense considering their popularity in security/police/army.

[Sitdowncupoftea]

Talking from experience with the breed my mother had a belgian shepherd when I was younger she lived until she was 13. A very well behaved and placid dog. She was well trained and good off leash she was around my kids when they were younger. To be honest she was the most obedient dog my mother ever had.

[stophuggingme]

I don’t know much about Belgian shepherd dogs
I do have a dog though and I’m more thdn a bit as to why you would remove their food from them at feeding time if they were growling at your kids already.

Think about what’s right for this unfortunate animal and whether the life she’s been saved from means she’s got a better chance of a longer rest of her days not being in her current environment

Hope it works out

[Italiangreyhound]

OP I hope that things will work out well, please keep us updated and good luck.

[WhenCoronaWasALager]

"We have been working on the kids being in "her" space, and them touching her when she is eating, taking food bowl away,”. This is the very opposite to what will be helpful. Dog needs to see kids as people who will give food, not take it away.

[newbathroomforme]

@Sitdowncupoftea he said they can heard as they are very trainable (with the right trainer) and super active and agile but they were/are primary used for guarding, apparently Groenendaels heard.

[tabulahrasa]

Mals are more dual purpose, like rotties or GSDs rather than a true livestock guardian breed like Sarplaninacs or Spanish mastiffs.

So yes, more full on in terms of guarding type behaviours that would be less than ideal in a pet than say a collie... but also very intelligent and trainable, so people do have them as pets.

The reason people go, ooft is that they’re... a lot of dog, lol, very high energy, very intelligent and will go self employed if you’re not keeping them occupied. You also want to be a pretty competent trainer, because they’ll easily learn something other than what you’re trying to teach if you’re at all unclear. Add in guarding traits to that and it can create quite a problematic pet.

But... if Belgian shepherd cross is just based on how the puppy looked to someone for the sake of a passport - that’s not hugely reliable and whatever the cross is will influence what traits she has as well.

[Sitdowncupoftea]

My mothers Belgian shepherd never guarded did not even show an incling of any guarding. Google says a lot of things about dogs that are untrue. Unless you have experience with the breed then don't go off Google. I had a Rottweiler when I was younger she had no guarding instinct but if you believe everything you read you would think they were savage. Personally any dog can make good pet it's down to the owners and how the dog is brought up socialised and trained. Certain breeds to have traits but dogs only guard if they are trained to do so.

[tabulahrasa]

“I had a Rottweiler when I was younger she had no guarding instinct but if you believe everything you read you would think they were savage.”

Mine definitely did, not that he was a good guard dog - because those instincts were never worked on by me, in fact we were burgled and he ignored them because he’d been trained to ignore visitors while he was in his crate and he was in his crate at the time...

But he was very aware of things being right or wrong and suspicious of changes... cars parked in weird places on walks got the stink eye, new furniture was very suspect till he’d investigated it. He once got quite upset and growly at a friends chest of drawers because it was outside her house waiting to be collected, lol

So when I say guarding traits I do not mean, will rush in and attack - I mean, more alert and less trusting than other breeds which can be trickier to work with than say a lab who approaches everything like it’s the next best thing ever.

[frostedviolets]

My mothers Belgian shepherd never guarded did not even show an incling of any guarding. Google says a lot of things about dogs that are untrue
True, but I would expect to see at least some guarding behaviour from a Belgian Shepherd.
Same as I’d expect to see some herding instinct from a collie and id expect to see a desire to fetch and carry things from a retriever

Personally any dog can make good pet it's down to the owners and how the dog is brought up socialised and trained
I really truly used to believe this but I don’t any longer.
Fact is, breeds tend to stick more or less to their expected traits though you always have exceptions.
Some of those traits don’t really ‘fit’ with what most people want and expect from a family pet.

Certain breeds to have traits but dogs only guard if they are trained to do so
What sort of ‘guarding’ are you referring to?
I agree that most dogs are incapable of protecting their owner from life and death situations (if that is what you meant by ‘guarding’?) unless specifically trained, and even then they have to have inherited the right temperament.

But guarding is a very, very natural dog behaviour!
A huge percentage of dogs will guard food for example from a nearby dog.

[newbathroomforme]

From what I understand the term "Belgium shepherd" encompasses a few breeds, some like the malinois are more guarding than others other heard. The expert on malinois that I know trains army dogs (SAS etc), they are basically trained to attack an enemy and they mainly use malinois because they have a strong guarding instinct which makes them easy to train to do this and are also very fast and agile.
I guess the OP needs some sort of clarification on what specific breed of Belgium Shepherd her dog is meant to be related too.
OP if your still reading this there is in IMO nothing wrong with saying to the rescue people you got her from that the dog is not right for you. It doesn't look like you were told a lot about her, you may lack the experience and knowledge to train her (although I'm sure you could learn if you want too and of your dog has got malinois on talk to the breed society I suspect that those who understand the red would give you support) or you may just simply lack the time and energy to train her. We are meant to enjoy our dogs I wouldn't get a dog that need lots of specialised training for all the money in the world. I have had dogs all my life Im in my late 50's) I'm no expert on dogs or dog training so we've always chosen breeds that are known to easy going and very easy to train because that means we get lots of pleasure and enjoyment from them. Maybe we've just been lucky with our choices but all our dogs have been very well behaved and thus a joy to own.

[frostedviolets]

Course, OPs dog may not have any shepherd in it at all.

If I read correctly, the “rescue” wrote she was a Belgian Shepherd cross based purely on appearance, but she could be absolutely anything.

[newbathroomforme]

If I read correctly, the “rescue” hmm wrote she was a Belgian Shepherd cross based purely on appearance, but she could be absolutely anything.
We used to own a very rare breed less than 70 are born every year and according to the breed club they are more rare than giant pandas. I was always surprised by the number of people who would say "oh the rescue I got my dog from say my dog is half that breed" I always wanted to say yes maybe I can see a bit of the breed on your dog, in reality I very much doubt he is half the breed.

[frostedviolets]

What breed was it?!