Giving up 12 week old puppy

[Ridusofyourstupidity]

Please please be kind.

I’ve been quite honest on here about losing my last puppy suddenly to anaphylactic shock and getting our new puppy a few weeks later. Now I’m not sure I can keep her due to her behaviour. It goes beyond anything I’ve experienced. She is 12 weeks old, weighs over 14kg and can reach chest height when she jumps against me.

She is repeatedly attacking me on a near constant basis with seemingly no reason. She will be chewing on a toy, lying down and get up to lunge and jump at me and bite my stomach, legs and arms while growling if I’m standing in the room even if I haven’t moved to draw attention to myself. If I ask for a sit or similar to distract her she’ll snap at me and ignore the request, although she does know ‘Sit’, ‘Down’, ‘Touch’ and will give both paws. When I have to carry her in from the garden she’ll growl and snap at my face. She is a large breed who isn’t meant to do stairs so this is unavoidable.

I can’t enter the room without her attacking me, she’ll bite the backs of my legs or jump up at my side to bite my arm. She’ll try and mount my leg while biting me if I’m still Leaving the room does nothing, she’ll try and block me leaving and she’ll continue when I return, even if calm. Toys do nothing as she will ignore them to jump and continue biting higher. Or she’ll pull my clothing like a tug toy while growling. I’ve tried every kind of toy but she let them go, snarl and dart under them to get back to biting me.

It is either very rough play or something more but it’s unmanageable. I’m now having to leave her alone in the kitchen as I can’t be in there with her, even when calm she will without warning launch at me. I keep trying to go in but it soon becomes too much as she doesn’t stop trying to get to me to bite. 15 mins is the most I’ve lasted with her ignoring toys and being latched on to me.

She’s incredibly difficult to walk even with no distractions as she’ll still attack me and bite me while we’re walking. She refuses all treats on a walk (I’ve tried several) and will pull, be incredibly hyper, running from left to right, and lunge and bite when I stay still.

I’ve done everything we covered in the puppy classes with my last puppy with her from the day we brought her home and none of this has made any difference. She has a marker word and all other commands are the same as before so everyone is on the same page. I’m not sure I’m going to make it through until Friday when I have a private training session booked. I’m utterly miserable and defeated.

I initially said that it sounded like attention seeking, but then you mentioned that she is totally different with your DH, and that she snarls and growls. Hence me thinking she may be guarding him, and the growling meaning that her behaviour is indeed aggression rather than misplaced but common puppy attention seeking.

Have you tried a firm 'no' and putting her in the 'down' position each time she does it. Even if that means initally placing your hands on her shoulders to physically put her in the position? This is how my trainer taught me. Regardless of the current thinking about dominance theory, it seems to me that she may well be exerting her dominance over you because she doesn't realise you are the boss. The trouble with distraction techniques is that they sometimes actually reward the behaviour yu are trying to stop, I.e. dog bites, gets toy given to them.

She knows ‘Off’ for jumping but it has no effect. ‘No’ doesn’t either, but she’s never had ‘No’ linked to a behaviour. She also has her sit release command but I stopped using that as it was losing effect.

She does this with me regardless of if my partner is here or not. If anything it’s worse when he’s not here, but that may be just me thinking that because it’s just me with her and no one to take the pressure off. When she’s like that she doesn’t like being touched, if I’ve had to put my hand on her to steady her while I get her off biting my stomach or leg it usually starts the growling if she hasn’t started it before. She’s definitely big and strong enough to resist me physically positioning her.

You have completely ignored all red flags, and argued your defence of thos breeder.

There were cleae red fkags yet you behave as if you're the expert despite this latsst attack makingnit clear you cannot even avoid a reoeat of exactly the same.

Why did you call the breeder btw? Before the breeder even spoke you said it was to turn the dog over to a rescue to be rehomed.

Why?

Do you not question any of your motives at all ?

You don't even muzzle a dog that repeatedly attacks you and infact set it up next to you in a car to do it again after its shown its going to?

You are ignoring questions.

I went with you for a long time.on this, giving you the benefit of the doubt. You showed poor choice, and no experience, despite all your grand claims.

You haven't demonstrated any expertise on this thread.

I agree that you shouldn't get another dog.

have you taken her to puppy training classes? Sorry if you have said this already and I've missed it.

She certainly isn't too big or heavy yet for a confident assertive owner to put her manually into the Down position. I worry that you are showing her how afraid you are of her, and she is using this uncertainty to assert herself over you. A dog who doesn't understand their position in the family is not a happy dog. It is like a child acting out and pushing boundaries. As the parent, you need to assert your control sometimes. When bribery doesn't work, then correction is needed. I believe in reward based training but when there is a serious problem to correct then rewards don't always motivate the dog to comply. In fact, they can be perceived by the dog as rewards for the bad behaviour.

Others will no doubt disagree.

The first thing I'd suggest you do is get the dog fully vet checked for pain. A lot of behavioural issues are down to pain. I don't know where you are based? I may be able to provide you with a behaviourist who could observe the dog with you, focussing on their body language and communication as many subtle warning signs are missed that he may be giving you before the bite. A bite is usually a last resort. Bear in mind he's only going to get bigger and enter adolescence in the next year. I have a giant breed dog too and am a canine behaviourist. Any chance you're near north, west or central London? I can recommend an incredible guy with decades of experience working with large dogs. Could you put a stair gate at the bottom of the stairs and not have him going up there / lifting. It would also give you a safe space. Is he crate trained? This would also give him quiet time as you don't want any negative behaviour to become habitual? He will sense your anxiety. Try all you can to appear confident (not 'dominant' - I hate that word in dog behaviour), calm, keep movements slow and ignore any behaviour you don't want repeated. Every moment of positive behaviour - eg lying quietly, use a clicker and treat. I really hope it works out for you. I feel your anxiety but do all you can to show confidence and calmness in his presence.

I think folk forget just how bitey and unpredictable pups can be. Just like over tired toddlers. If she was a small dog the problem would still be there but because she is a big pup just seems much worse. I wouldn't have left her with the breeder either.

When she’s like that she doesn’t like being touched

Touch sensitivity? Possibly induced by something environmental so not there all the time?

I agree that a high protein diet can make some dogs more hyper and aggressive.
(As an aside, anyone remember the “less passion from less protein” man ? He used to walk up and down Oxford St with a sandwich board and give out leaflets on eating beans rather than meat ).
I also agree that some of this is normal puppy behaviour, she is treating you as though you are a sibling.
However it sounds as though it is getting more extreme, and as it is focussed on you, it seems to me that she either is worried by you, or she sees you as a sibling/rival.
Puppies need to spend time each day playing with other dogs ideally, this helps them work through bite restraint, and also gives them a sense of their place in relation to others. Does she ever get to play ? Because all my puppies have found playing with balls etc a bit boring, and either wanted tuggy games (terriers) or rough and tumble, preferably with other dogs.
Am I right in thinking that you haven’t yet had a behaviourist look at her snarling , or biting you ?

Does she ever do this with your DH, or literally never ?
Does she play with your DC at all ?
When did you last own a dog (before your poor puppy that died recently) and what breed ?

I am also interested as a friend has a similar giant breed rescue pup who is behaving in a similar way, my experience is not with giant breeds, so I wonder if partly this is a breed trait ?

There is no shame in walking away from this.

@mumofthree321 I agree that the word dominance isn't ideal. But I do see my role as a parent and dog owner (there are obvious similarities) as that of 'the boss'. My DC should do as they are told and so should my dog (ideally!! not always happens!). Not in a Victorian obedience kind of way, but to keep them safe, make the family dynamic work and because I know better than them. When my dog or DC push the boundaries, which they will inevitably do, then they need to be shown what is correct behaviour and sometimes this means me asserting myself as the boss. This goes alongside rewards.

With dogs and DC, a sharp NO must be heeded for their and others' basic safety. You are right in that confidence is absolute key to commanding respect.

Training classes don't train the dog, they train the owners. If the OP can get to regular classes AND get a professional behaviourist to do some intensive sessions with her, then there may be a way back from this. But only because she is so very young. Possibly.

OP, perhaps the first thing you need to do is show the dog you aren't afraid of her. If you are afraid (and understandably so) then this is going to be difficult for you.

You must be at the end of your tether after the last few days! From your posts, alot of the behaviour seems to escalate or worsen when you and the dog are alone? It might be useful to film the behaviour to give the vet/behaviourist etc, as much insight as possible into what you are putting up with, often verbal descriptions can't give enough detail, and in true puppy fashion, she'll probably act like butter wouldn't melt when they're there! Good luck OP, to you and the pup. X

OP, forgive me but it feels very much like you’re making this more of a drama than it needs to be. I don’t mean the behaviour of the dog, and I don’t mean the very obvious and expected upset that you’ll be feeling. What I mean is, you seem to be prolonging any resolution here with a series of excuses. At first you insisted that the breeder was fantastic, you’d done all your research and knew exactly what you were doing. You became defensive and offended when you thought people were suggesting you were clueless, and gave a long description as to why the opposite is true. Yet you’ve repeatedly put yourself in positions where you could be attacked in a confined space, and you’re now saying the breeder couldn’t be trusted with the return of your pup - incidentally I think it’s in poor judgement to make this decision based on the fact you didn’t like how she spoke to you - this isn’t about you, not at all. It’s about what’s best for this dog. The breeder was very probably trying to express (granted poorly) that a rescue would be a terrible idea, I very much doubt she was actually telling you to have the dog PTS.

You have gone through this entire thread insisting that you are entirely innocent and being offended at any suggestion that you’re perhaps going about things in the wrong way. When in actual fact it seems very clear that you have made many mistakes here, this isn’t a judgment, merely an observation. You need to put your feelings aside and think of the dog and it’s future, I can tell you with some confidence that the only way a rescue will take and re-home this dog is if you lie to them about your reasons for doing so. I know you mentioned a foster placement, but you’ve said yourself that she doesn’t do this with everyone. What happens if she’s fine with the foster placement, then (when she’s much bigger and more powerful) takes a disliking to whichever poor soul decides to take her on?

I’d say your only real options are return to the breeder, as awful as she very clearly is (for producing this X in the first place, rather than for how she spoke to you), or have her PTS. Whatever you do, you really need to stop the fannying about and do it quickly, for ALL of your sakes.

@HeidiPeidi I completely agree. If you look at OP's previous posts, the first time she mentions returning the puppy is a few days after she got her, at the end of September. What a prolonged and drama filled month that could have been avoided

OP, please let us know what happens. I'm worried about you.

I'm a dog walker and I really feel for you.

If this dog is attacking you, then she won't be safe around anyone. She's already big and is nowhere near fully grown.

It is very hard to surrender a pet but you need to think about how she will be in public...

Not having seen the dog I still have a totally open mind on whether this is puppy biting/play made scary by the size of the dog, or genuine aggression. But it seems to me there are two choices:

1. Return to the breeder.
2. See a good behaviourist and follow their advice (which - at its most extreme - may include euthanasia).

I am not convinced that a bunch of strangers who haven’t seen the behaviour or how dog and owner interact can do more than generate angst.

I've been following this thread, but haven't posted until now. I really hope that you manage to sort something out that you're happy with, OP .
I do wonder if maybe your expectations have been unrealistically high? What stood out to me was you saying that, whilst walking, distractions can cause her to lose focus. Tbh, I wouldn't really expect any 12 week old puppy to be able to ignore outside distractions - our Labrador puppies used to be distracted by absolutely everything (litter, leaves etc...) and they were like it for months! And were still very easily distracted for years! Could you be feeling anxious because the reality isn't living up to your expectations and she is feeding off of that anxiety? And I genuinely don't say that as any sort of criticism. I definitely think that, whatever you do, you need to do as other posters have advised and try to get a video of a couple of these incidents (preferably showing what led up to them if possible) and show those to someone more knowledgable. As already pointed out, all animals will almost always show you up to be a complete and utter liar.

I agree with Motorina
It is hard to tell whether this is normal puppy play, many puppies do play roughly, and she is still extremely young. I have met so many owners of puppies who get stressed and anxious at rough puppy play with other dogs, and assume it is aggression or actual fighting. This leads to a dog never let off the lead, badly socialised, and then properly aggressive with other dogs, so the owners never learn the difference.

OP Is she the only puppy you have had apart from your other recent pup ?
You do need someone very experienced with puppies to watch her with you.
How does she play with other dogs and puppies ?

I agree with Heidi completely.

OP you are turning this into a complete drama and in the middle of this is a very stressed, large breed who is now being confined to a kitchen rather than being immersed in a family.

You cannot keep her. That much is clear.

I think it's irresponsible to hand her to a rescue and unfair to potential fosterers.

I doubt they would even take her if you fully disclose her behaviour, especially given her breeding.

You should give her back to the breeder. You praised her early on in the thread.

Return the dog and grieve. I wouldn't get another large breed if I were you. Give yourself some time and reevaluate what you wanted from a dog.

and in the middle of this is a very stressed, large breed who is now being confined to a kitchen rather than being immersed in a family.
Yes. Walking her in deserted areas and keeping her apart from the rest of the family will be terrible for her. If you cannot get her into rescue foster care (I suppose that could depend on whether they believe her behaviour to just be rough puppy play or not), then I also think that your only real option is to return her to the breeder.

I agree with what had been said. I think the drama you've created has made her feel insecure and not know who was her 'leader'. I got the feeling throughout you thought you knew better than anyone as you had done some sort of course many moons ago. I'm sorry if this upsets you but I think you need to take her back to the breeder and face whatever shes says then walk away. The pup will be relieved to be honest to be somewhere away from the drama. It's not that you're giving up at the first hurdle. You've tried and now need to see what's best all round. A rescue centre will only stress her out more. Any 'breeder' worth their salt will want their dog back if theres a chance she was going to be put in a rescue because of problems. Hope you let us know what you've decided. Of course your safety is paramount too. Sometimes it just doesnt work.

I've been following, and know you from the puppy support threads. I do sort of agree with the above. But I think it stems from you placing sooo much significance on this puppy because of what happened to your last one. Your expectations were so high, you talked of being instantly in love with your lost puppy, and instant bond, him being attached to you. I think you expected too much from this little puppy.

And when she hasn't delivered, she has picked up on that emotion, that loss or anxiety. You seem to place a lot of emotion on the whole process tbh and agree that it is now becoming dramatic. It needs ot be resolved for the sake of the puppy.

You said you went to puppy classes with your last puppy so didn't need to this time- you that a lot of the value of puppy classes is the socialisation with other puppies?

I agree, the whole point of puppy class is to mix with other puppies. This is a very, very young puppy. My first two puppies were 12 weeks and 14 weeks when I got them, and just babies. They need lots of play time with other dogs, and to be integrated into a family.
I agree that you seem incredibly stressed and to be taking everything too seriously. Puppies are hard work but also fun. I did small amounts of fun training every day with my puppies, but mainly they were just puppies ! Playing with other dogs, meeting all sorts of people and dogs, madly charging about and then conking out.
Your puppy is on a high protein diet, and yet not burning it off. It sounds a lonely and pressured life for what is basically a baby.

I have given some mixed views on this thread (as more info has been given and updates). I can't stop thinking about the two diverging issues of the puppy's age and the perceived aggression. @SirVixofVixHall is right, she is so very young still. OP, you don't have very much experience of raising puppies. Your account of her aggression, snarling, growling, lunging etc seems extreme. I cannot imagine a 12 week old puppy understanding real combative aggression (unless desperately terrified in a fight or flight situation). She is (and should be) learning what is acceptable behaviour, pushing boundaries, testing you, play fighting (within boundaries, controlled human play, free dog play). I suspect that it is being perceived as aggression because she is so big, her behaviour is so uncontrolled and unpredictable, and her sharp baby teeth can do some damage. She may be just going through a normal puppy phase, albeit on a large scale because of size and having had no boundaries or discipline put in place. If the OP being bitten, runs away, screams, pushes the dog off, then this will be viewed by the pup as joining in the fun playtime. Like a litter mate in a rough and tumble situation. It is up to humans to draw the lines in a way the puppy understands means No, Stop That. OP, I mean no disrespect or judgment on you, but your inexperience IS probably making this worse, coupled with a super lively, bouncy and giant puppy. I bet your DP doesn't get this treatment by the dog because he doesn't tolerate it. It may mean she disrespects you, or just sees you as a fun play prospect. Either way you must draw the line with her, stand firm and show her in words and actions that This is Not Acceptable. A trainer can show you this. A behaviourist may also do so, though they can be a bit 'therapy oriented' when it's just normal dog behaviour, but hopefully you've chosen a good one with a load of common sense. What I am saying is, this may not be a defective dog, it may just be poor training so far, and she is bolshy but redeemable because of her age, and if proper boundaries and training can be put in place.

I repeat that the breeder may be best placed to assess her and advise. She only reacted to your account of things OP, and you were highly emotional when you called her. Let her see the puppy for herself. She has only been gone from her home for a few weeks. She has known her longer than you have, and she has more experience of these dogs, of raising puppies, of this litter, and of your dog.

How has she been today? Any news on the behaviourist?

OP dont listen to the twats, omfg how sneery and nasty some people can be
I have my opinion on what you could do but I assume you have had enough of other peoples opinions so I wish you luck that you find a happy solution for and Hope xx