Need help with 7 month old puppy

[foxbasesecular43]

Hey, just before I go any further, I'm talking about a Cockerpoo, so please, only comment / offer advice if it's without any negative feedback on your thoughts of that particular mix of breeds - thanks

We've had this dog since he was 8 weeks old, did my research etc etc, happy with the breeder etc etc.

He's never given us a sleepless night, isn't destructive, only barks at other dogs, is great with kids and visitors, playful, fun, got a real character.

He's also really stubborn, and takes on training when he feels to - is fairly food orientated, but not 100% food orientated, and his biggest problem (apart from being quite pully on the lead but that's for another day) is that he doesn't just run off when off the lead - he takes himself off for laps round the park - and streaks past me completely ignoring anything I'm doing to get him back (ie throwing his favorite ball, treats, squeaky things etc etc).

It's so depressing - it means I actually can't let him off the lead, which is not what I'd hoped for when getting a dog - I really enjoy walking and basically assumed that my dog would be my walking companion - but today he totally ruined it by making me wait for 15 minutes in the park whilst he did laps, to the huge amusement of several other dog walkers who looked on in a mixture of horror and sympathy as I stood there watching him streak away in to the distance.

I have a long line which I keep him on in the main, but I think he really hates it so when he doesn't have it on he really makes the most of the freedom, I've tried the Citronella collar, but it makes no difference - I am becoming tempted to try the ecollar because I'm totally at my wits end.

As background, I do training with him practically every day, his recall in the house and garden is 99%, he's engaged with me, our bond is strong (not today it isn't, I can't stand the sight of him) I'm basically doing everything I feel I can to try and improve the situation and I've just reached a point where I'm thinking of sending him back to his breeder. no judgement please.

Has anyone got experience of a young dog doing this and then miraculously growing out of it?! Or was there something anyone did to change the dogs mindset?

Thanks in advance

"Positive training only works if the reward is greater than the behaviour you are trying to stop."

1. Nonsense. Consistency, reward and repetition is proven to work.

1. The method used goes back to basics and teaches the dog that he always comes back because every time he comes back, something good happens. He makes the choice to co-operate and with practice and repetition (or in other words balanced training) he always comes back. The level of challenge is increased as progress is made.

The OPs dog is a young dog going through a phase that most young dogs go through and your first call is an e-collar? Geez.

Some dogs will panic with the thing just on the 'vibrate' setting, or those that don't shock at all but just beep.

Plus, if a piece of dog equipment can be misused it WILL be misused. The number of disasters there have been with Flexis is testament to that and I see many 'accidents' waiting to happen with them every day.

Give me a dog that's been happily trained and bonded with his people above one that's been unfairly shocked into submission any day.

It isn't proven for all dogs.
If it were, you wouldn't get registered positive trainers claiming there is nothing more they can do and it is a case of management/never letting off lead.

If the reward isn't good enough the dog will not return.
Not all dogs are sufficiently food or prey motivated for high value treats and toys to work and even in those that are, many will not return for a treat if the alternative is better; like chasing squirrels.

No, my first port of call would be the method you described actually.
It is how I trained my dog to recall and it works beautifully in most cases.

But, if that method does not work, because the 'bad' behaviour is more reinforcing and has become a habit as does sometimes happen in some dogs then I would try an e collar under the guidance of a professional before deciding not to let the dog off leash ever again because I think all dogs massively benefit from off leash exercise.

Then for those dogs an e collar isn't an option is it?
Those dogs will probably be 'management' cases.
But most dogs are not going to be frightened by an e collar used correctly.
Used correctly, at the right working level for that particular dog they cause no distress.
If they do, you almost certainly aren't using them correctly.

I don't agree with flexis, I think they should be illegal.
I feel the same way about headcollars.

Except they haven't been 'shocked into submission'
That isn't how the collars work at all.
Used correctly you shouldn't see any signs of distress in the dog at all.
Used properly they are far, far less aversive than a head collar which no one seems to have a problem with.

Misused, they are absolutely cruel and dangerous.
Hence why I don't think they should be available to the general public, only registered trainers.

"But, if that method does not work, because the 'bad' behaviour is more reinforcing and has become a habit as does sometimes happen in some dogs then I would try an e collar under the guidance of a professional before deciding not to let the dog off leash ever again because I think all dogs massively benefit from off leash exercise."

But that's not what this is, is it? It's not a recalcitrant, long-entrenched bad behaviour. It's not a rogue sheep-chaser having to live in sheep country.

It's a seven month old puppy growing up, fooling about, and not coming back in the park! It just needs training, and the OP needs reassurance.

You don't jump straight from there to an e-collar. And conditioning to an e-collar is as aversive as actually using the damned thing.

No one training method is proven for ALL dogs.

Have you seen the results of an e-collar failure? It's a real mess. Much worse of a mess than being 'managed' or permanently on-lead. Even in such cases, there are, these days, venues available for 'on-lead' dogs to go off-lead safely.

Adolescent hijinks are not an indicator that positive training methods are unsuccessful and alternatives need to be sought. It's a normal part of the development of a young dog and any management necessary to prevent undesired behaviours is usually temporary with consistent training and teaching of important life skills such as good impulse control.

Training with aversive methods only effects behavioural change if the stimulus applied is more unpleasant than the unwanted behaviour is rewarding. This is why invisible fence systems are notoriously unreliable, the reward the dog gets from chasing squirrels or running to say hi to other dogs is great than the negative consequences of running through the fence line.

The negative side effects of using aversive training methods have been very well documented.

The OP's dog is also potentially at a very important developmental stage, the second fear period which occurs sometime during adolescence. During this period a single negative experience can have a very lasting impact on the dog. I'd highly recommend this blog post on the subject, written by a veterinary behaviourist.

Nothing the OP has written sounds like unusual behaviour from an adolescent dog. Even if there was an argument for the use of aversive in "life or death" situations there's absolutely nothing to suggest this is such a situation or that the use of such methods is worth the potential fallout.

Fucksandflowers you sound like you have never even heard the words ‘operant conditioning’ much less know what they mean.

Thanks for all the comments and ideas, I'm using the whistle training as outlined in the book Total recall, which is slow progress but I'm obviously in this for the long haul, and I swear I'm noticing improvements in his on lead attention - but in the meantime to satisfy both mine and the kids urge to let him run free (and obviously his!) I have rented a field for an hour next Sunday about 40 mins drive from my house - through Dogwalkingfields.com, which helps you find the nearest secure field to you.
Fingers crossed ongoing training will help, and if anyone's interested and I remember I will come back on here and say if there are any breakthroughs in the next month or so!

Good luck OP. Our poodle is 7 months and an utter sod at recall. I use a long line for him now. He’s pretty good when there’s no other dogs or people about but if there are he’s off and no amount of good treats or exciting toys do it for him.

I’ve just bought the book total recall and will also get a whistle. My dog has a tendency to come just close enough to me but not close enough to be grabbed. I keep repeating “this too will pass” whilst untangling his bloody long lead.

Excellent news, good luck.

I averaged a 7 month old cockerpoo & posted ‘rehoming my puppy’ recently on Mumsnet so that gives you an indication of how we’re doing! 😭

On top of all the advice already given... I’m going to point out that 10k is about 3 times what I’d walk a puppy that age...

Sounds counterintuitive but over exercising a puppy can lead to mad zoomy about behaviour...

Just in case anyone is following this thread, or sees the title and thinks 'oh that's me', i thought I come back on and give a progress report. I've just come back from the local park, where I walk my now 11 month old dog, off lead, with a ball, a whistle and his breakfast in my pocket.
He doesn't get any food unless he's worked for it, at home he doesn't get automatic privileges, ie, he has to do something to get something, even a pat on the head. This may sound harsh, but over the course of a few months it has absolutely changed his behavior. Rather than assuming that he is due anything he wants, he now has to ask for it, and that means when out on a walk he is much more focused on what I'm doing, where I am, and what I might want him to do.
He does not have a rock solid 100% recall, and just now he was running toward me after being called, but then saw a bird and went after that despite me calling him - so I would give him a 75%. He's not safe in environments we don't know, so long walks off lead in the country are still out, but I think that's the case for so many dogs, and frankly I mainly walk him in the local parks and at least now i actually enjoy those walks. So just wanted to say that with quite a lot of work on my part (and his) and his age, life with him has got infinitely better - let this give someone else who is in my position hope!

Great update OP - there is another thread right now about a toublesome teenage lurcher and this may well be the hope that OP needs