Need help with 7 month old puppy

[foxbasesecular43]

Hey, just before I go any further, I'm talking about a Cockerpoo, so please, only comment / offer advice if it's without any negative feedback on your thoughts of that particular mix of breeds - thanks

We've had this dog since he was 8 weeks old, did my research etc etc, happy with the breeder etc etc.

He's never given us a sleepless night, isn't destructive, only barks at other dogs, is great with kids and visitors, playful, fun, got a real character.

He's also really stubborn, and takes on training when he feels to - is fairly food orientated, but not 100% food orientated, and his biggest problem (apart from being quite pully on the lead but that's for another day) is that he doesn't just run off when off the lead - he takes himself off for laps round the park - and streaks past me completely ignoring anything I'm doing to get him back (ie throwing his favorite ball, treats, squeaky things etc etc).

It's so depressing - it means I actually can't let him off the lead, which is not what I'd hoped for when getting a dog - I really enjoy walking and basically assumed that my dog would be my walking companion - but today he totally ruined it by making me wait for 15 minutes in the park whilst he did laps, to the huge amusement of several other dog walkers who looked on in a mixture of horror and sympathy as I stood there watching him streak away in to the distance.

I have a long line which I keep him on in the main, but I think he really hates it so when he doesn't have it on he really makes the most of the freedom, I've tried the Citronella collar, but it makes no difference - I am becoming tempted to try the ecollar because I'm totally at my wits end.

As background, I do training with him practically every day, his recall in the house and garden is 99%, he's engaged with me, our bond is strong (not today it isn't, I can't stand the sight of him) I'm basically doing everything I feel I can to try and improve the situation and I've just reached a point where I'm thinking of sending him back to his breeder. no judgement please.

Has anyone got experience of a young dog doing this and then miraculously growing out of it?! Or was there something anyone did to change the dogs mindset?

Thanks in advance

Also, if you go on to 'dog training advice and support on Facebook' they'll find someone near you and offer advice.

Sorry, I meant 'Dog training and advice and support' on fbook.

Citronella collars are horrific.
Far more aversive than a e collar.

I would try an ecollar under the guidance of a registered balanced trainer.

A proper trainer will help you find the dog's working level (the lowest possible setting the dog responds to) and show you how to use the collar properly.

You have to condition the dog to the collar first and tobrespond to pressure, you don't just whack it on and press when the dog does something naughty.

That is how you get into abuse territory.

Aren't they banned from the UK though?

My dog was like this when he hit adolescence, there was no getting him back! The training was all there, he was just too bonkers to use it. It all passed very suddenly and he is a fabulous dog now at 4 yrs. I did have to use a harness and a trailing lead. Remember most dogs are given up to rescue centres at this age cos people can’t cope. It will pass I’m sure, just manage it as best you can and try and keep a sense of humour about it!!

At this age he will be trying you to see how far he can push you, as he's entering his teenage phase. My girl would take off after another dog and refuse to come back, I did a recall class which makes the owner much more interesting than whatever the dog is after.
Doing these games and being unpredictable (suddenly running off, dropping treats then running calling her name etc) has really helped. Made me look like a nutter but I was sick of running after her. She occasionally will go deaf but she gets put on the lead if she ignores me. Being offlead is a fun reward and if she is a brat she doesn't get to enjoy it.
Try another trainer, your one sounds useless if you are in Cheshire I can recommend a great one.

Also I wouldn't use an E collar as it'll probably confuse him as he won't know what he's being corrected for. That and they are barbaric but that's just the opinion of myself and many positive trainers.

probably confuse him as he won't know what he's being corrected for. That and they are barbaric

If used wrongly, without the guidance of a proper trainer yes it could confuse and yes it is barbaric.

Used properly, they are not cruel and have saved countless dogs from being given up or put to sleep.

Too many people use them without conditioning the dog first, without teaching the dog how to respond to the pressure first and without finding the dogs working level.

They just put it on and choose a setting and use whenever they see behaviour they don't like.
That is cruel and potentially dangerous.

I have heard that they have been banned but I have heard from others that it's only up to a certain setting so I'm not really sure where the law stands on them.

I certainly don't think they should be available to the general public because they are too easy to misuse but I am in favour of their use by a registered, competent professional.

Surely a truly competent professional trainer wouldn't be using aversive methods like ecollars.

Depends on what you view as 'aversive' really.

A lot of trainers who use e collars won't touch citronella collars or head collars as they view them as cruel and 'aversive' where they don't see things such as e collars properly used as aversive.

Electric shock collars are quite rightly becoming illegal in the UK. Citronella collars should also go the same way - would you like to be sprayed in the face with an unpleasant taste? Please get rid of any kind of aversive method you've been using. All you need a harness, a longline, a whistle and treats - nothing else.

At seven months he's going through his teenage phase - when all forms of obedience go completely out the window! If he won't come back you need to keep him on a lead of some kind - for his own safety if nothing else. What would you do if he leapt a wall or gate and bolted in the road, or jumped up at someone and injured them? The other option is to hire an enclosed field so if he doesn't come back, he's not in any danger.

Keep him on a longline (always use with a harness so he doesn't injure his neck) and let him run and play. Whistle for him to return. If he doesn't come back, stand on the longline and walk towards him, then return back to where you were with the dog and treat. He needs to learn that being with you is a good thing - if he's not food motivated, try using a toy - a stick, a ball or something to keep him wanting to be near you. Being near you must be a good thing.

I get how frustrating it is, but you need to persist and train constantly. The other thing is to recall on a very regular basis, not just when you want to go home. If they learn that recalling = end of walk, why would they come back? Mine gets recalled every 5 minutes or so, sometimes he gets put back on the lead, sometimes I hold his collar, sometimes he just gets a treat, sometimes a stick to fetch. He doesn't know what's going to happen so he comes back just in case it's going to be a toy or a treat.

Mine is 16 months now and 95% excellent - he did disappear chasing a deer today but he was in my line of sight the entire time and came back after five minutes or so. He's a hunting breed so overriding his natural instinct to chase is really difficult but he's much better than he was. We're very lucky to have enclosed woods and a beach near us so he can go off-lead everyday - he has no where he can run off to so I'm confident he's safe even if he runs off for a bit. Luckily it doesn't happen often though - and the times it does happen are getting farther apart.

As an aside, 10k is far, far too much walking for a 7 month old puppy. He should be getting 35 minutes twice a day at that age - you're risking damage to his joints in the future by over-exercising. Shorten his walks (he's probably far too overstimulated which makes them go deaf and silly) and do brain games at home instead.

Yes, the 'make yourself the most exciting thing in the park' method is an important training tool.

High pitched excited voice. I used to leap up and down when I called my dog when training recall. Play games, make it exciting. You have to be more exciting than that rabbit, or that other dog.

Fucksandflowers I view anything that attempts to shock, frighten, or startle a dog into not doing a particular behaviour as aversive, no matter how controlled the use is, be that ecollars, citron collars, rattling loud things at a dog, shouting, slapping; all these things are equally aversive and should never be used to 'train' an animal.

Controlled calm positive training is all that's required.

Clearly I'm not the only one who thinks this as shock/ecollars are to be/or have been banned in Scotland. Hopefully they'll be banned in the rest of the UK soon.

High pitched excited voice. I used to leap up and down when I called my dog when training recall. Play games, make it exciting. You have to be more exciting than that rabbit, or that other dog.

Oh yes. Today I was stood on a tree stump (in a thankfully deserted woods) to make myself seen, practically yodelling to get my dog back to me. But you know what? I looked like a muppet but it worked, he came back and didn't leave my side for the rest of the walk!

Ecollars are banned in Scotland. You do not need aversive methods on a 7:8 month old dog.

I would be careful about aversive training.

BiteyDog is what I would call a very easily scared dog (fortunately scared timid rather than scared aggressive). He never used to be like that but due to unavoidable negative experiences around the age of 1 (vet admissions and lots of tests etc) he is now scared of loud noises and strange places amongst lots of other things. I wouldn't risk creating a negative situation with collars etc as you don't want to create other behaviours that may be far harder to manage.

The best thing to do is to accept it's a normal part of adolescence to ignore your command and will test your patience for several months.

Electric collars are aversives, it’s not a matter of discussion, it’s a straight forward definition. They are an example of positive punishment, he dog does an undesirable behaviour and receives a negative punishment, an aversive. THere are milder aversives, from using a deep voice, to making a sudden noise, to squirting water to squirting an unpleasant smell.

An electric collar won’t confuse the dog, it I’ll teach it a very fast lesson...chances are, it won’t be the lesson you are hoping for. Here is a very illustrative example: my neighbor rescued a puppy and dismayed that, unlike its elderly dog, the new puppy did not stay in the undenied farm. The puppy got into the habit of running out into the road to great passers by, he was very cute and friendly but he was putting himself in danger from traffic. So my neighbor put an e-collar on him. The puppy saw us coming, was used to playing with my dog, run out and got zapped. He associated the pain with my dog and has attacked him ever since. A couple of zaps later and the puppy made a connection between my neighbour’s shouting and the electric shocks...so he turned around and bit my neighbour.

An electric collar won’t confuse the dog, it I’ll teach it a very fast lesson...chances are, it won’t be the lesson you are hoping for

But that is confusion.
The dog is confused about what lesson it is supposed to be learning.

In your examples, the collar has been used at the wrong time, most probably on the wrong setting too resulting in a fearful dog acting fearfully aggressive at the wrong thing.

It is exactly why they should not be allowed anywhere near the general public.

Properly used they don't distress dogs, they don't cause fear aggression and more importantly they enable dogs to be kept in their own homes and alive.

@Booboostwo thanks for your response. Yesterday i'd been walking for about 10km with him pulling and pulling on the lead, I'd basically lost my patience with him already, and I let him off the lead once we got to the park because I was just like, whatever! Irresponsible I know, but I genuinely thought, how bad can it be?
He didn't stay in sight of me, he seemed to be chasing something at first but then it's like he lost his mind and just ran - sometimes nose to the ground, sometimes not. I walked slowly toward the bench and he did seem to be doing loops past me to keep an eye on me and I purposely didn't call him, as there is no point and it's just diluting any commands. Once he started slowing down (and I began to really loose my sh**) i called him a few times and I noticed that he did glance my way but seemed incapable of coming over. A nice old man also tried to tempt him with treats but to no avail. Eventually, once I had a nice gathering of fellow dog walkers round me, I crouched down when he was fairly near me and called him with a treat and he came over, I took his collar and yes, of course I put him on the lead. I'd been waiting for him for 15 - 20 mins! I know I'm not meant to but where's the reality of that!
And yes my 10m line is fairly heavy but can't seem to find one that isn't - it's quite a lot of fabric!

He didn't stay in sight of me, he seemed to be chasing something at first but then it's like he lost his mind and just ran - sometimes nose to the ground, sometimes not.

That sounds just like my cocker when he has a scent with his nose down. This is why you need to stop thinking about a walk as the traditional dog walk and to start thinking how to 'work' his hunting and chasing nose so you become someone he wants to engage with.

@NeuropeptideS it's so frustrating isn't it! Totally ruins my enjoyment of owning a dog and walking with him!

Please stop taking him on such long walks at such a young age

@Fucksandflowers I'm with you on the collar - I feel they probably have got a place in dog training, alongside a professional trainer. I'm saving that for a last resort - I can't belive that I have got the untrainable dog - he's so good in most other situations (apart from being a bit jumpy and licky etc) but I've trained him to have manners in most other situations so am going to persevere before going that road. Thanks for your comments though

Look at the positives
He didn’t run off
He came
He let you catch him
This is A LOT better than it could be, believe me! It’s an adolescent dog messing about. Keep letting him off the lead but make sure you have time and won’t be pressed to get him back. What are you giving as treats? Liver is quite good as it isn’t very smelly, save it just for recalls. Are you using a clicker? Once the recall becomes a conditioned response things become easier.

For a long line I use washing lines. Just to go over it quickly: you attach the washing line and the normal lead, you ask the dog to sit (or whatever you do before letting him loose) and take off the lead. The washing line trails behind the dog (obviously you cannot do this where it I sit likely to become a danger to others or your dog). When you call the dog if he comes you click and treat, if he does not you say nothing, you step on the line (unless he is so heavy he is likely to pull you off your feet) and walk down the line to wherever the dog is, you place two finger shots under his collar and reverse back to where you were when you recalled him, you click and treat. Also worth priming him before you take off the lead, so you walk 2-3 steps backwards, call, click and treat, repeat 5-10 times. If he is too distracted try this with a piece of liver under his nose.

Fucksandflowers could you give us some examples of how you have used an electric collar properly to rain a dog? In 20 years of training dogs i’ve never come across one example, although I have often heard of people saying they know someone, who knows someone whose dog would have been PTS if it wasn’t for the e-collar.

We use a biothane long lead with our puppy. It is bright yellow, plastic, strong and light. Because it is plastic it does not hold water - just a quick wipe if he has run through the mud!

Have you thought about doing recall training in a secure field so you don't have to worry /so much?

I'd love to live near a secure field.

Or a fire without too many distractions.

But every dog walking place near me is packed with kids, dogs, other humans, birds or squirrels, making long line and effective recall a nightmare.

I can't drive out to the middle of nowhere every day either, it's just not practical. Maybe on a weekend yes, but not every day. I don't know quite how to overcome this, so I sympathise with you OP .