Collar V Harness?

[Alwaysgrey]

We joined puppy classes a while back and our trainer seems erm quite old school (no clicker training, but does do reward training and is quite free with the water spray). She likes all dogs to wear a collar. I’m working hard with Grey pup on lead walking (he’s 5 months). But he’s terrible. Loves people and other dogs. Although we are very bonded he still pulls. Trainer thinks harnesses are the devils work and cause a dog to pull more but I’m worried we could be causing neck problems for Grey dog given how much he pulls.

I question you do know you dog if you interpret the situation as you do

responds to a prong correction simply by stopping whatever she was doing whether that was eyeballing another dog or starting to break heel or whatever and walking nicely would strongly suggest the prong is not as aversive as people think

Your understanding of the above situation is wrong just so wrong. The dog is terrified to do any behaviour as it will cause them pain and discomfort that is exactly how an aversive works. If you think you have a chilled calm happy dog you are incorrect.

Mine is rarely on lead now but when he is its by harness, staffies nd other breeds just do better with a harness. You can also get double leads with one sitting higher up for more control. I bought a soft harness on amazon, he wear it to clip into seat belt in car too

The whole nature of a prong collar means there is a level of distress Over the last couple of days, we have been asked on several occasions for our position on pinch collars (also known as prong collars) and whether they are legal to use. Pinch collars are not illegal unfortunately and although those who sell them state that they are ‘quite gentle training tools’, we believe the opposite to be true and we want to see them banned
How do pinch collars work?
To appreciate why we are opposed to pinch collars, it is important to understand how they work. Pinch collars are based on the principle of applying something painful or frightening to stop an undesirable behaviour – very simply, when a dog pulls on the lead, the prongs of the collar close around the neck which can cause pain or discomfort which reduces the chance of the dog pulling on the lead again. Research has shown that aversive training techniques, like pinch collars, can cause pain and distress and can compromise dog welfare
The above is taken from an RSPCA blog post .

If someone put a load of prongs round my neck I'd stop what I was doing pretty damned quick in order to minimize movement and cause pain.

Of course your dog walks 'nicely' because walking calmly and with the least amount of movement it can manage minimizes the amount of pain it will have inflicted on it's neck by the prongs in it's collar.

Dog's are not stupid. The dog will have worked that out for itself.

Personally, I prefer my dog to walk 'nicely' because I've trained her to do so in a gentle, caring way, not because she's fearful of the pain I might inflict on her if she doesn't.

Also if you have a harness made to measure or properly fitted a dog will not escape from it .

So in any other situation the complete absence of muscle tension, a neutral tail, ears forward (how she naturally carries them), head up, a relaxed gait matching mine/not slinking behind, relaxed eyes with normal pupil size proportional to light/not massively dilated and a relaxed mouth signals a relaxed happy dog but where a prong is concerned it magically morphs into terror..

If that is what you want to believe so be it.

I would far rather have the above dog than the wild creature gagging and choking (through pulling) and tripping me up or the shut down terrified dog with the low body, low head, pinned ears, slinking gait, full of muscle tension and wide eyes.

I know my dog.
You, having never met her, do not.

I actually think you are winding us up for fun Doggy the troll award is all yours.

If that is what you wish to believe.

Doggy, why do you think your dog "walks nicely" when wearing a prong collar vs a flat collar? Surely the only difference is the prongs that dig into your dog's neck if the lead goes tight. Why do you think your dog stops pulling... could it be because they find it painful, or at the very least uncomfortable?
And just to correct your earlier assertion that stopping when your dog pulls is positive.. well, no its not positive, its just not painful. It can cause the dog to become frustrated which is not positive and certainly not conducive to learning.

Has the number of people saying you’re wrong not caused you to question yourself even a tiny bit? Clue to knowing whether or not your method is aversive - is your dog behaving because it’s receiving a positive or negative consequence for ‘bad’ behaviour? You’ve admitted on this thread that you’ve made mistakes with training, but you seem to think they’re too late to be corrected - it’s not at all, back to basics and use a toy as that is a high value reward for her.

You mentioned that she’s hyper focused on toys which is fab for training, you know what motivates her - if you only bring it out as a reward for training she’ll understand she needs to work for it. Teach her to ‘leave it’ before anything else

Please do not use a harness unless you have a husky. They encourage dogs to put their shoulders forward and pull. All you need is a check chain. A thin one and do not put it on upside down or it will not run free. Start with the dog sitting and, if your puppy runs forward and tries to take you for a walk, check the progress and say heel. Repeat. I have trained obedience and agility dogs and can assure you that this is the best way because the chain does not stay taut when the dog is at heel. You cannot have proper control over the dog is your point of contact is halfway down its back. I wouldn't ride my horse without controlling its head and the same principle applies to dogs. Firm guidance is called for and the best treat you can give your dog is a pat and a "good boy/girl". I have lost count of the number of dogs I have seen, wearing harnesses, pulling their owners down the roads. Very dangerous - if they see another dog and lurch into traffic it will be difficult to bring them back to safety.

My dog didn't understand the lead and collar situation and would pull - cough and choke - then continue to pull. I was struggling to take her out and feared she would hurt herself so she has been on a harness ever since. I tried the Halti neck and harness but she's now fine on her harness and she's not a big dog. she won't do me or herself any harm now if she does pull so on her harness we are both happy and it's helped before in a near miss when a dog went for her. I pulled straight up (was terrifying) and due to her being on a harness she just came straight up to me unharmed and safe so in short

I find a harness a lot better for my dog

Oh FGS I give up .

Percheron, i don't understand why you would deliberately use a training devise that inflicts pain.

Doghair. Thankyou. Have you ever been taught to use a check chain properly? I doubt it. If you had, you would know that using a check chain correctly does not cause pain or injury. It just causes the dog to stop and listen to what you say. A great many people in he dog world are very worried about the number of dogs who do not have proper training and are a danger to humans and animal life. My bitch was started on a check chain and never caused a problem to other pavement users and dogs. She was a sweet tempered soul who had perfect manners. I wish the same could be said of a great many dogs today. I have said this before but the late Barbara Woodhouse was a wonderful exponent of the art of dog training. Dogs worked for her because they wanted to - she was a very sensible woman.

There is a chapter in a Woodhouse book that says to stop a dog chasing chickens you should ‘pick up the dying chicken it has chased and hit the dog with it everywhere’ . Seriously people we have moved on from these archaic methods and means of forcing dogs to do things our way because they are scared or fear we will hurt them .

So Percheron, i could use a thin choke chain round your neck and check it sharply then could i? Or is that different somehow?
I am not denying there are many untrained dogs out there. There were untrained dogs around when choke chains were popular.
I am all for training your dog to walk on a loose lead. I just wouldn't use any device that causes pain. And lets not pretend that a choke chain is not aversive, it may 'work' when used well, but firstly, most people don't use it well and secondly, it only 'works' because it inflicts pain or at the least, discomfort. I can train my dogs to walk on a loose lead without inflicting pain or discomfort.
Surely, if you were striving for excellence in your chosen hobby of obedience and agility, you would want to use the best training methods available, which are surely the ones that don't hurt your dog. Or would you want to win at any cost?

I have lost count of the number of dogs I have seen, wearing harnesses, pulling their owners down the roads - the problem there is a badly trained dog though, not the harness. If the dog is trained to walk at the owners side then a harness is perfectly safe. An untrained, pulling dog with a collar or check chain on is still an untrained, pulling dog.

Thank goodness the vast majority of us realise that Barbara Woodhouse's methods are out of date and often cruel. Positive training methods are so much kinder, work just as well if not better, and encourage dog and handler to have a positive bond so that the dog wants to please, rather than being forced into doing so.

Doghair. My bitch worked well because she wanted to achieve and please. I would never want to win at all costs - don't presume - and competed with her because she and I enjoyed what we did. She was never forced into doing anything. My neighbour's dog, however has been going to a behaviourist for positive training and now has to be muzzled before it goes out. Reward a dog always - only a pat and voice needed - and it is a happy dog. No need for treats - we shall have a nation of overweight dogs if they are constantly given food.

Pecheron...I trained my puppy to walk to heel without a lead at all to start with, using rewards based training. Once he’d got that, the lead was added. Check collars are not necessary at all.

...and if you give your dog food out of its daily recommendation when training, it won’t get overweight.

At training class our teacher suggests, for example, getting the dog to “work” for its breakfast and lunch, as the training “treats” are the dogs food.

Then I'd suggest that your neighbour either didn't train effectively or for long enough. Or the dog had a bad experience that could have happened to any dog, however trained. Or her circumstances weren't suitable for a dog.

No need for treats - we shall have a nation of overweight dogs if they are constantly given food - it doesn't work like that. As you'd know if you had done adequate research into positive training methods.

AgathaF Thank you for your comments. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. The neighbour did not train the dog well or effectively since she hasn't a clue how to do so. The dog came as a puppy so did not have bad experiences. He does need discipline and correct training which he does not have. That is not the dog's fault. With regard to treats, a kind word and a pat are things which will please your dog greatly. Dogs, like humans, enjoy doing the right thing.

I don't understand this 'dogs pull more a harness' idea.

My dog has worn a harness for all of her 8 years. She doesn't pull because she's trained not to pull.

I see loads of dogs with harnesses that don't pull and some that do pull. I also see loads of dogs with collars that pull and some that don't pull. It's not difficult to understand, the ones that pull haven't been trained properly.