Collar V Harness?

[Alwaysgrey]

We joined puppy classes a while back and our trainer seems erm quite old school (no clicker training, but does do reward training and is quite free with the water spray). She likes all dogs to wear a collar. I’m working hard with Grey pup on lead walking (he’s 5 months). But he’s terrible. Loves people and other dogs. Although we are very bonded he still pulls. Trainer thinks harnesses are the devils work and cause a dog to pull more but I’m worried we could be causing neck problems for Grey dog given how much he pulls.

Dont use one then, stick to a harness.

Do you not give a shit that you’re hurting your dog instead of training it doggy ?

I did try and train her...

*Stand like a tree/stop at leash tension method - dog would bounce forward once then automatic sit
*sudden turn and change direction method - dog would bounce forward a couple of paces then jump round and bounce in the other direction

• slowing down at rising leash pressure, think it’s called silky leash or something similar - dog would just slow down a fraction then surge forward again
• head collar - dog looked unbelievably depressed, sulking behind, pawing, trying to get head collar off, I felt it was cruel so binned it
• leash pops/corrections - dog become shut down and nervous, creeping behind me, I didnt want my dog feeling like that so stopped. *choke chain - didn’t like what I read when I researched it as it mentioned collapsed trachea, spinal cord problems and all manners of other horrors so never bought one. *letting her just pull - dog gagged and retched due to choking herself
• harness - dog pulls as normal, I am not strong at all so it was hard to control her, she also had a habit of suddenly lunging right out in front of me which is extremely dangerous.

Researched the prong, watched videos of ‘proper’ trainers using it, bought one, found it fantastic.

My dog doesn’t appear in anyway distressed with it, she’s happy to wear it, she walks normally and happily, not sulking or anything.
I can control her easily, she gets more walks, I don’t have to worry about falling where she’s lunged in front of me.

If people don’t want to use it that is fine, don’t.

I do and I like it and will defend it.

Oh also, forgot about treats and toys!

Used this too.
Dog is not massively food motivated, even if deliberately starved to make sure she is hungry.
She would walk for a bit then get bored and wasn’t interested in the treats anymore.

She is obsessed with toys. To a dangerous level. As in the eyes never leave the toy, she will even walk backwards to maintain eye contact on the toy, no care about potential dangers like cars and things. No interest in doing any normal doggy things like picking up sticks or sniffing posts where other dogs have been.
Personally, I don’t wish to encourage such obsessive behaviour, I think it is very unhealthy to have a dog obsessed like that

Our training people said collar is best for classes but people have harnesses anyway and it’s fine. I’ve used just the collar in class before as there shouldn’t be any pulling anyway there. No water spray- just sausages! I can’t see the need for a spray, our teacher manages to encourage being firm without resorting to punishment. I use the harness when out and about though- out of class it’s just too exciting to expect a puppy not to pull. And it’s easier/safer to stop them or catch hold of them if they are heading somewhere they shouldn’t, or are involved in play that’s getting out of hand.

I can guarantee you either didn’t stick to the methods you tried long enough, didn’t use a high value enough reward, or a combination of both. Loose lead walking can take months to master - responsible owners go at their dog’s pace and find out what works for them, they don’t chuck the towel in and resort to a prong collar 🤷🏻‍♀️

Oh and another vote for perfect fit- my puppy has one and I’m so glad we chose it.

We are taught to walk with treats coming from our left hand in line with our leg, which draws the dog to your leg (no pulling). So most of the time the puppy is by your leg anyway, and not pulling, regardless of whether it’s wearing a collar or a harness. A harness doesn’t cause the dog to pull.

You didn’t watch ‘proper’ trainers using it , you watched ‘cruel’ trainers using it . To me it’s no different than slapping / kicking the dog every time it pulls , it will have the same effect .

Yup floral, it’s so sad that people who subscribe to these outdated methods feel that they’re fit to be dog owners! 😢 I bet doggy believes in pack theory too.

Sorry OP to answer your question harnesses all the way and the perfect fit is a fab choice, it has a V strap so doesn’t cause the dog any discomfort

Ah yes, puppyisadick it is always the owners fault of course it is...
No matter how trainers they have had in, no matter how many different tools they have bought, no matter how much time they have spent, no matter how much money, no matter how many years they have shed, it is ALWAYS the owners fault.
Wouldn’t be as simple as the same method doesn’t always suit all dogs.
No, it HAS to be the owner.

Not high enough value you say?
I tried kibble, conventional dog treats (many brands), cheese, plain chicken, bacon, pepperami, hot dogs, dehydrated liver, those awful dried sprat things...
Do you have any better suggestions?
Some dogs really just aren’t that food motivated.

Months you say?
Try years!

I’m pretty sure if I slapped or kicked my dog the response would be the same as the response to corrections on a flat collar and the head collar - depressed, scared, shut down, miserable.

I can assure you that if my dog had responded like that to the prong it would have gone the same way as the head collar.
Straight into the trash...

As it is, she shows no signs of distress and walks beautifully.

If others feel it is cruel so be it, don’t use it.

I don’t believe in pack theory actually.

I believe that different dogs have different personalities, some placid, some shy, some overbearing, some confident.

I believe that all social animals benefit from boundaries, clear guidance on what to do and what not to do.

But I do not believe in pack theory no.
I don’t believe that dogs are constantly fighting to be ‘top dog’ or that aggression is a matter of trying to find its place in the pack or eating first or any of that.

My dog has had a harness for 12 years.
Loves going for walkies!!

Dear god, can't believe people are still advocating the use of prong collars. Like the water spray it's not something any caring dog owner should be using.

I have found the kikopup YouTube videos excellent in giving training advice. We tried all the different methods to get our ddog not to pull. We are finding a clicker really effective and treating after increasing number of steps. He is still only a puppy and us always better after a trip to the park!

I don’t think anybody is saying that one solution works but a caring dog owner finds a method that isn’t cruel that works , and if that takes until the dog is 6/7/8/9 then so be it . If it works for you and you are happy to use an outdated , cruel method then at least have the decency to keep it to yourself and don’t advocate it as an answer to potentially novice dog owners who may not realise that it’s cruel .

Dogs walk quicker than humans so that is the main reason it appears that dogs are pulling not being naughty or stubborn

Dogs also need to be taught impulse control and luckily this is way easier than teaching it to children

A harness works well with a front and back clip so use a double ended lead.

ALL dogs will repeat rewarded behaviour. Once you have found the correct motivator you will succeed with training loose lead walking.

Personally my dogs know that if the lead is on the front clip of the harness then they walk to heel, if on the back clip alone the can be in front of me but on a loose lead.

There are many methods to teach loose lead walking but I generally prefer methods that do not increase frustration so avoid the standing still, or turning around if they pull.

The mistakes most people make are trying to train the loose lead walking in an area with too many distraction, or the dog is already aroused eg on a walk, when going out to the walk in a busy street, logs of smells, other people etc.

The dog needs to know the behaviour in a quiet calm area before you take it on location.

Before you even begin to teach loose lead walking it is worth spending time on rewarding your dog for focusing on you. No command for this but you want your dog to look at you and then reward. Do not put the treat in front of you just wait for the dog to look at you and then reward. If your dog is used to focusing on you in different areas and in different situations you will make loose lead training way easier. A dog can not pull ahead if they are looking up at you.

Doggy no wonder your dog found walking to heel hard - all the methods you used were aversive. The irony of your views in that you would not use a collar because of the injuries but would use a prong collar .

Our dog can’t wear a harness due a medical condition she has, we only found out after buying four different ones, she reacted as though we were about to murder her trying to fit one. Anyway, from about 18 months she has completely stopped pulling it did take time though.

Wow I’ve never heard of a print collar, they look awful!!

Prong

overfedstanley
I agree that it should be taught indoors inside with no distractions first.
I also agree that it would have been easier to encourage eye contact/focus first
I fully acknowledge I messed up with loose leash training and would definateky start heel training in the house with a new puppy.

The training methods were not aversive?

I used high value treats (positive)
toys (positive), stopping/be a tree (positive), slowing in accordance to leash pressure (positive) and turning around at tension (positive)

Leash corrections and head collar usage were short lived because the dog was suffering and I do actually like my dog and would never knowingly cause her distress.

Choke chains I never tried because the research suggests they are very dangerous.

I tried a prong and she responded really well.
As I have said, I would have stopped using it immediately had she shown signs of stress like she did with head collars and corrections.
But she doesn’t show stress at all with the prong.

No sulking behind (as she did with head collar and corrections), ears forward instead of pinned back, tail neutral instead of tucked.

I absolutely would not use the prong if she showed signs of stress.

Plus, prong collars are designed to distribute pressure evenly rather than pressure all against one area as with a regular collar so for a dog that pulls, they are safer.
The limited research that has been done suggests that prong collars (properly used) do not cause injury.

I prefer headcollars over both.

Harnesses are a pain in the arse. I work with dogs all day long (not mine) and you literally have 0 control over the dog at all if it wants to do whatever it likes it can.

I’ve also seen lots of injuries from dogs backing out of them and getting squashed on roads so hate them even more for that.

And I would argue aswell that a dog who visibly shuts down and becomes anxious at a flat collar leash pop but responds to a prong correction simply by stopping whatever she was doing whether that was eyeballing another dog or starting to break heel or whatever and walking nicely would strongly suggest the prong is not as aversive as people think.

You do not need a dog to tell you that this is cruel or will cause stress.

I know you are wrong to use this - you can justify to your hearts content - you will never convince me that this is acceptable

I know my dog.

I would not use something that caused her distress.