Help me please

[shpongle30]

I'm torn totally between two dogs.
Border collie puppy 8 weeks male from farm used to children, dogs, cats etc no injections, vet checked microchipped.
Or
Border collie pup/dog (4months old) from farm, used to kids, dogs, cats, farm animals, injections done, microchipped, house trained🤔, only reason for sale is he is scared of cows???
Wwyd?

Should add, dh and I have 7 dc, ranging from dd1 (15) - dd5 (4), I'm a sahm and close to large fields etc, my heart is going young and my head to be honest but dh wants older pup.
We had are darling dog blue pts just over a month ago due to a heart condition when he was only 1, so we have a huge dog hole in our hearts.
I grew up with border collies and german shepherds, dh didn't grow up with dogs and has only just agreed to a border collie.

Avoid any puppy who is already showing traces of anxiety, would be my advice, and that especially applies to collies. Although the 8 wo is too young to assess temperament as yet. If you can see parents, watch out for that typical crouching slinking hostile collie act.

Both can be seen with, mum and dad, going to see 4 month old today/tomorrow, but I'm scared I'm going to fall in love and not go with my head.
I am used to dogs and puppies both working and pets, but since I lost blue very wary and I'm sure I will just fall in love and not go with my head. Luckily dh is going with my and might (fingers crossed) be able to make me be reasonable.

Further to my comment above, I'm a vet and I practice in an urban area where border collies are inexplicably popular as pets. I'm from a farming background and spent a long time in rural practice where border collies are (quite logically) popular working dogs. I think that most border collies are not ideal pets, especially farm-bred dogs with that drive and intensity which so often makes them anxious, tricky animals. Most of the dogs in my practice who are on chronic anti-anxiety medication are border collies.

Why a border collie, especially one from a working background? They're prone to being a bit neurotic, need lots of physical exercise and even more mental exercise, and really need a job.

I used to know a border collie that had moved with its owners from rural Devon to inner London and had to be muzzled because it was forever trying to herd children in the park, nipping at their ankles in the process because that's what it would do to sheep (lovely dog apart from that I might add, and a very responsible owner).

They're lovely animals, but not one I would recommend unless you had a specific purpose in mind for the dog, such as competition obedience, agility or flyball. While they're lovely dogs they're on my "never" list of breeds as I doubt I could give them what they need.

I have a working bred border collie and she is a wonderful tolerant dog.
I love her!

She can be a bit dog aggressive but this is due to repeated bad experiences not a temperament fault.

I would however, agree to avoid a nervous one.
Nervousness is a big issue in the herding breeds.

I would avoid 4 month brought up on a farm with limited socialisation, possibly sleeping outside , not used to traffic, roads household noise and already showing signs of nervousness.

In fact I would not go and visit the 4 month old at all

I would go for the 4 month old - old enough to be over the exhausting puppy stage but young enough to be malleable.

I own a boarding kennel and my heart sinks when I get a Border Collie in.
They have all been, without exception, neurotic and most of them destructive.
Our kennels have the dogs out 5 times a day, you can't give them enough exercise. Mentally, they don't appear to have an off switch.

My advice, as a family pet, they are far from ideal and I would definitely have a rethink on what breed to get.
There are some brilliant breeds out there that make super family pets, have a look around.

TBH I wouldn’t have either, I’m not a BC person I prefer my dogs to have an ‘off’ option. What about a spaniel? Will take as much exercise as you can give it, but not such a bottomless pit of energy as a BC. Or a different type of collie?

So sorry to hear you lost your previous dog so young, what breed was he?

‘TBH I wouldn’t have either, I’m not a BC person I prefer my dogs to have an ‘off’ option. What about a spaniel?’

First of all the OP has had collies before and likes them..

As for no off switch, my collie has an off switch.
So do both of my neighbours collies.
So do nearly all the collies I have ever met.
They are pretty much ALL calmer and more responsive than the working type spaniels I see out and about.
Or are you just referring to the watered down cocker ‘spaniel’ with much of the spanielness bred out?!

Why people who have never had a collie feel the need to make such sweeping and inaccurate statements I do not know.

** watered down show type cocker spaniel I meant to say

And twoheaped maybe your seeing stress if your running a boarding kennel rather than the true temperament..

When I put my collie into boarding kennels, before I knew home boarding was a thing, I asked how she had been and was told she’d been fine, a ‘typical’ collie, constantly doing something, running round, on the move.

And I got quite upset because my collie is only active on a walk.
Any other time she is sleeping so I knew straightaway she was extremely stressed.

When I home boarded her pretty much all the photos I received of her in the house were chilling on the sofa or floor..

I don’t think you can accurately gauge what a dog is truly like in an alien environment like a kennel

I wouldn’t go for either of those tbh. I’d contact BC Rescue. You’ll know much more about the pup/dog you’re getting and not be adding to the thoughtless breeding those farmers have done.

not be adding to the thoughtless breeding those farmers have done

How do you know it’s thoughtless?
The first puppy may have been bred to sell as a future working dog or family pet and if it is done responsibly I don’t see anything wrong with that.

The second may have been bought or kept on with the intention of being a working dog and the farmer may see the nervousness towards cow and deem the dog unsuitable for work and is therefore re selling it to a non working home?

doggy you have no idea of our kennels and their set up.
The only dogs that are stressy are the BC's and a Vizsla, we have told their owners and they keep coming back because they are stressy with the home boarders and they won't have them.

The majority of our owners have come to us from home boarding because they get more exercise and we offer a better service.

I an quite happy to pm you my Facebook page so you can see how good we are

I have no idea of your set up that is true but most dogs do find a kennel environment where they are surrounded by other barking dogs and away from their owner extremely stressful regardless of the number of walks.
The same dogs might be very different at home.

I don’t know if I will leave her alone again if I am honest.
The kennel staff were lovely but I know she was deeply stressed.
It is out of character for her to be super active running round all the time outside the context of a walk or training activity.
I was really happy with the dog walker/home boarder I used instead of the kennels until I saw footage of dogs in their care completely and utterly out of control.

I posted about it on here in fact, they allowed a massive retriever to repeatedly hump a tiny dachshund and just laughed.

You could see the dachshund growling and air snapping!
They removed the video but I’d already seen it and just don’t trust anyone with my dog now.

I remember your post now about the home boarder.
We have just had an incident of a dog walker/boarder taking her 6 charges out and one legging it. He got hit by a car just outside a high school and buggered off pumped with adrenalin. When they found him a couple of hours later, he was scuffed down to the bone.
I designed our kennels, they are in a long line, dogs don't face each other, they get to look out over the moors. The block is really quiet until we go in and the dogs know they are going to be fed, walked or both.
We have many dogs who have never been kennelled or have only home boarded but have come to us because we have a well thought out set up.
We have home boarders refer tricky dogs to us as we seem to have a reputation as not being like a regular kennel.
The biggest endorsement is that we board 3 sets of dog walkers dogs, a local dog behaviourists and a number of vet's dogs.

There are good kennels and dog boarders out there, it's just finding one you like and trust.

Doggydoggy, you're kind of making my point for me. I'd wish for the OP to choose a calm dog who has the resilience to cope with other dogs and boarding kennels and vets and all the different experiences of life without suffering extreme stress and anxiety that verges into aggression. Border collies tend to be like yours.

DoggyDoggyDoggy yes, you’re right. They might have bred them responsibly, especially if they wanted another farm dog themselves. Unfortunately the majority of farm pups being sold seem to be additional income pups from dogs that shouldn’t be mating. The fact that both the dog & the bitch could both be seen, on both farms, makes that even more likely. Yes, it’s possible they were a good breeding match but I’d put money on the OP not having looked into that.

I’m not following at all villanous?

You said most of the collies are anxious and tricky and on anxiety medication and that their drive and intensity makes them bad pets.
Then you said most border collies are like yours, as in mine.

But, my border collie is an excellent pet..
She has sufficient drive to work and is impossible to tire as you might expect from a healthy working dog but she is calm and placid in the house, literally spends all her time sleeping.
She is super tolerant of children and friendly and totally non destructive.
She is pretty confident, completely steady around loud noises, sleeps through fireworks.
The only problem I have is dog reactivity but even then, she has never properly bit so far from the worst case.
The only reason why she is reactive around dogs is because others have attacked her.
She certainly isn’t on or in need of medication.

I just don’t understand what you are getting at?

She is generally fine at the vets aswell.
Struggling at the kennels is hardly unique to collies, most dogs struggle in a kennel environment.

I hadn't realised this thread had taken off so much so quickly!
We live in Devon so plenty of places for a lot of walks/runs etc.
Why do I want a border collie?
Well why does anyone want a a certain type of breed?.
Anyway just to update.
We went to see the 4 month old puppy today and his is now fast asleep next to me.
He has settled in so far amazingly.
I know the work that had to go in to collies as I was brought up with them.

And just to add. He was going to be kept by the farmers who bred him, but as he was scared of the cows they had to let him go. They have kept another two and sold two more to nearby farms. They felt he would be better off with a family rather than a working dog.