"Your dog should be Terrified of you" - Please help me with this argument!

[MyDogNeedsaLawyer]

I have a 12 month old German Shepherd. On the whole, his behaviour is good - he has good recall about 70% of the time, he's well socialised with people and dogs, no aggression, no nerves, a happy dog.

He is boisterous and highly strung - liable to jump up at people, and has zero recall if he sees another dog to play with. I'm working on it hard with lots of positive reinforcement, practising recall constantly, and using a halti collar to control him to prevent him from running up to other dogs.

I've just had an argument with a family member who told me my dog should be terrified of me.

He was in the garden, he looked up and woofed at a passerby, so I told him a stern no, then told him to sit, lie down and then I praised him and gave him a treat. She told me this was wrong, because I was praising him for woofing at the passerby. I tried to explain that what I had done was told him to do something, he did it, and I was praising him for that. She couldn't see that.

She said that I should give him a good hiding, and he ought to obey me because he "should be terrified of me".

I tried to explain that teaching a dog to fear you doesn't work, and that positive reinforcement is the training method that is used by all the expert dog trainers. But I struggle to make the argument in the face of her stubborn insistence that she is right..

Please can someone help me to make the argument - my dog should not be terrified of me, and that is absolutely not the way to get him to do what he is told?

She’s vile whoever she is.

She is... I can't disagree with that!

Does anyone use fear as a training tool? I certainly don't...!

She told me that some people's dogs are perfectly trained by their sides. I said with those dogs you can be sure of 2 things:

1. They're older than 12 months.
2. They haven't been taught to behave like that by being terrified.

I also told her that I'm fairly certain that no Police dog is EVER beaten or taught through fear punishment at all. There's NO WAY you could get a dog to behave like that if it was afraid of you.

Am I right?

I think you will find it a lost cause to try and reason with them but if you want to try maybe look up some training references to cite.

Personally my response would be 'I'll train my dog the way I want'

No, your dog should respect you and be wary of your displeasure- but that doesn't mean they should expect a beating if they do something wrong. Your dog sounds like my collie. She is boisterous and a real handful, we have had to work really hard to get her to be bearable. We are very firm with her and will tell her off, tell her to go away, go in her basket etc. But we are really loving too and this has enabled her to be secure and calmer. She now comes back on a word whereas at first she ran away etc.

That was 'no' they shouldn't be afraid not 'no' you are not right, btw :-)

Exactly and the dog should know my displeasure by me removing affection, ignoring him and telling him off if he's naughty (but crucially, only if I catch him in the act - no point telling him off hours after the event...)

A dog is just like a child,praise when they are good & a stern voice when you are displeased with their behaviour.You wouldn't beat a child,so why would she think it's ok to treat an animal this way.

The problem is the times where he's misbehaved - he hasn't been with me. He's been with my parents. I cannot train my parents to train him.

If he's with me... he's rarely naughty. If he jumps up at me, I step away and ignore him, tell him to sit and only greet him once he's sitting. If he pulls on his lead, I tell him no, and then praise him when he stops pulling. If he is pushy wanting affection - I tell him to lie down and praise him once he's calm. If he won't come back when I call him - I walk away... then call him again and praise him when he comes.

What else should I be doing? Battering him when he comes back to me? That's not going to improve his recall?..

You wouldn't beat a child,so why would she think it's ok to treat an animal this way. Her answer to that is "because he's not a child, he's a dog"

But then when I try to tell her that he's not born understanding what human words mean, and I have to teach him, and it takes time and learning and trial and error - she counters that with "well kids know, so he should know"

Kids don't know... they need teaching. And he's not a kid, he's a dog.

My aunt bred German Shepherds for 20+ years - big, strong, bolshy dogs and bitches with 'variable' temperaments. Her dogs all behaved beautifully for her and I've never seen her hit a dog.

I'd be fairly tempted to try the 'scare the shit out of them' approach on your relative though. They sound like an arsehole.

You don't train a dog with fear, you cow them with fear.

All modern scientific research points to reward based training producing the best outcomes.

Causing a ddog pain will literally come back to bite you one day.
In the form of your own ddog's teeth...

I will never ever hit him. I don't ever want to see that sort of fear in his eyes.

As for my relative - I walked away and cut our evening short.

But not before pointing out that her own children are badly behaved and don't respect her, so perhaps she should reserve her judgement...

Round of applause for you - stick to what you're doing, he sounds lovely.

www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die

All modern scientific research points to reward based training producing the best outcomes

I told her that. She rolls her eyes, tells me she's right, and I should give him a good beating.

Round of applause for you - stick to what you're doing, he sounds lovely.

Thank you - he's fantastic, I love him to bits. He is a handful, but he's a work in progress. And whenever I'm with 'dog people' they can all see that he's lovely natured, boisterous but a diamond in the rough :)

Ask her if she believes in the concept of Alpha. If she says yes point out that the scientist who came up with it, Dr David Mech, debunked his own research.
If he can move with the times then so can she.

maybe you should let her know that if you did "give him a good hiding" you could be charged with animal cruelty. Absolutely ridiculous that she has this mentality. Your boy sounds lovely and totally normal for a 12 month old. Completely ignore her. A fearful dog is the MOST likely to bite. Carry on being a super dog owner!

Or tell her about Banchory Bolo - the first dog in the UK to win championships in both field and show.
He was so badly treated by two owners he was nearly put down. It took kindness to get him to double champion level ( and it was all almost undone by someone cracking a whip near him).

Also Guide Dogs, some of the most highly trained dogs in the world are not trained by fear.

Stop trying to argue with this complete moron. It's like trying to get a baby to drive a car, she's beyond incapable of understanding, even if she tried, and she's not trying.

Ffs ( on your behalf, OP). Don't know why people continue to believe this outdated shit. I hate Caesar Milan and all the crap he peddles.

You are right in the way you are treating your dog. Ignore your stupid relative

Please tell me this woman doesn't own a dog.

I think you're right, I can't argue with her. She makes circular arguments and argues off on tangents anyway, so she's pretty bloody difficult to deal with on most subjects!

I just need a response when she huffs at me for not 'giving my dog a good hiding' when he is 'disobedient'... my response is always "Look - he hasn't done what I asked him to. But now I've asked him to do something, and he's done it so I've rewarded him". She thinks that's wrong... what the hell do I say / do to prove it's not wrong?!

She doesn't own a dog.

She has never owned a dog.

But she is apparently an expert in dog training.

I have owned several dogs. But she knows more than me, apparently