"Your dog should be Terrified of you" - Please help me with this argument!

[MyDogNeedsaLawyer]

I have a 12 month old German Shepherd. On the whole, his behaviour is good - he has good recall about 70% of the time, he's well socialised with people and dogs, no aggression, no nerves, a happy dog.

He is boisterous and highly strung - liable to jump up at people, and has zero recall if he sees another dog to play with. I'm working on it hard with lots of positive reinforcement, practising recall constantly, and using a halti collar to control him to prevent him from running up to other dogs.

I've just had an argument with a family member who told me my dog should be terrified of me.

He was in the garden, he looked up and woofed at a passerby, so I told him a stern no, then told him to sit, lie down and then I praised him and gave him a treat. She told me this was wrong, because I was praising him for woofing at the passerby. I tried to explain that what I had done was told him to do something, he did it, and I was praising him for that. She couldn't see that.

She said that I should give him a good hiding, and he ought to obey me because he "should be terrified of me".

I tried to explain that teaching a dog to fear you doesn't work, and that positive reinforcement is the training method that is used by all the expert dog trainers. But I struggle to make the argument in the face of her stubborn insistence that she is right..

Please can someone help me to make the argument - my dog should not be terrified of me, and that is absolutely not the way to get him to do what he is told?

My dog was trained through consistency, kindness and positive reinforcement. He was a little bugger u til he was about 2 and had to be reminded what I wanted him to do (kindly). He’s a lovely boy and no trouble now other than the odd fox poo rolling incident but dogs do stuff like that. Beating a dog to make it fear you is ridiculous!!! You will end up with a snappy dangerous animal. Maybe beat your relative and see how she reacts (joking)

Can't you just say. "This is how I've chosen to train my dog. You have never had a dog. When you get one and it is perfectly behaved I'll listen to your opinion"

Thank god for small mercies.

And in response to an earlier comment of yours, the police absolutely use reward based training. I've seen it done and the dogs have a fabulous time. You could refer her to 'In Defence of Dogs' by John Bradshaw (as a last ditch attempt before giving up on her, that is). It's a great book.

Does she expect children to be terrified of their parents?

What an absolute twat.

@FairfaxAikman sorry forgot to say thank you for that link and the examples!

With my previous GSD, I did 'dominate' him during his early years when he started showing aggression / over dominant behaviour when he was about 18 months old. It was subtle, but when we were playing, he would get a bit bolshy and snappy, so I would respond by pinning him down. I based this on how he himself behaved when interacting with younger dogs. It worked well - he was never afraid of me, but he stopped trying to challenge me during play and was never aggressive after that.

I haven't done that with my present dog because he simply hasn't exhibited any aggression or dominant behaviour towards me.

My family member knows I haven't done it, but won't listen when I tell her it is because I don't need to do it.

You could refer her to 'In Defence of Dogs' by John Bradshaw (as a last ditch attempt before giving up on her, that is). It's a great book. She would never read a book on dog training. She doesn't think she needs to because she's right, and she doesn't care what the scientists or 'so called experts' say, she is right.

This is how I've chosen to train my dog. You have never had a dog. When you get one and it is perfectly behaved I'll listen to your opinion"

I need to make that my mantra. Thank you

My dog was trained through consistency, kindness and positive reinforcement. He was a little bugger u til he was about 2 and had to be reminded what I wanted him to do (kindly)

Thank you - that's what I needed to hear. My dog is also trained through those methods. He's 12 months - so he needs reminding, and isn't perfect.

My family member thinks he should know by now. And the reason he isn't perfectly behaved by now is because he 'doesn't fear me'.

She sounds disgusting... I hope she hasn’t got any pets !

Can anyone else tell me how long it took them to get their dog to behave exactly how they wanted them to? I think he's doing really well for 12 months. He's still boisterous, but calming down a LOT, and he responds instantly to commands most of the time.

The times when he doesn't, like when he's being highly strung because he's on a beach and there are other dogs chasing balls while he's on his lead, or when he tries to jump up at people when he greets them, or when he wines wanting attention (and he's ignored).... I get told that he's a nightmare and I need to give him a good hiding.

There is never ever any reason to pin a dog down. You’re lucky you got away with it with your last dog.

Really? I'm honestly interested in why this is now considered a bad thing. I never ever harmed him or hit him at all, but when we were playing, if he got too bolshy, I would 'win' the game by pinning him. It's exactly what dogs do to each other all the time when engaging in play.

I know that there's a school of thought that believes pinning is wrong, I'm intrigued by this. I guess the other way to deal with my dog being bolshy would be to stop the play immediately and walk away. I'm sure that would work too.

Why is pinning bad? genuine question

Jesus wept. You can't reason with stupid.

What does she think is going to happen when you recall a dog that's terrified of you? It's not going to want to come back, because it's terrified.
What happens when you approach a dog that's terrified of you? The dog doesn't want you to come near it, and when the usual stress signals are ignored, the person gets bitten... congratulations, you're now well on your way to creating a fear aggressive dog.

Like you, I've found it far easier to train my dog than to train my parents to train my dog. We had 6 months of disagreements before DF would agree to take treats out when walking him, for recall. He's another one that thinks he knows lots about dog training despite never having trained a dog before, though thankfully he doesn't come out with anything as batshit as your family member.

This pinning thing sounds similar to an alpha roll? Alpha rolls are textbook Cesar Millan stuff, and is really best avoided. I'm sure you're aware that he's considered something of a pariah in the dog training world.

Not really an alpha roll, just 'winning' any wrestling play whenever he got bolshy. He definitely tested me when he was young, then he stopped.

My current dog - has never done that, he's still a baby

But yeah, I get that the whole 'alpha roll' thing can be detrimental. I don't want my dog to fear me.

Re the pinning... you’re not another dog, you know that and your dog knows that.

When another dog does that it’s surrounded by a whole lot of communication that you can’t replicate, so you’re just suddenly pinning them down for no particular reason.

If you’ve got a fairly bright dog and it’s not easily upset or stressed, they probably will learn that you do that when they do x and they’ll stop doing it.

But it’s the equivalent of winding a child up by rough housing with them and then suddenly shouting aggressively when they take it too far.

You’re being overly harsh and unpredictable... and some dogs are going to react badly to that.

Ideally you’d see that they’re going to go too far and start doing something calmer before that happens or just stop the game.

Yeah fair enough, I understand.

My previous GSD was incredibly stable and well balanced, which is why I think he understood. This one is more needy, and more highly strung. I won't be terrifying him any time soon

If that was my family member I would tell them I was disgusted they would beat an animal and seeing as they think violent abuse to a dog is acceptable behaviour I don’t want to be in their company anymore and I would have nothing to do with them, sorry but I could not breathe the same air as someone who held opinions like that.

Probably already been said but the army use positive reinforcement training for their dogs such as mine detecting dogs. If they’re using it to train dogs they’re putting lives in the hands of then that’s surely a good enough answer for anyone.

I told her the Police use positive reinforcement and I'm certain their dog's aren't 'terrified' of them ever.

She didn't believe me.

She then said that 'my way' might work if I'm with him 100% of the time, but because I'm not, and my parents look after him a day a week, then I should be teaching him to fear doing anything wrong.

I don't understand the logic of how 'my way' would work if I was always with him, but can't work any other way.

I also can't understand how she thinks I can train him to fear my parents. And why that might make his recall better.

She criticised me for the way I handled him barking at a passerby (which was one 'woof', which I immediately said 'no' to, then told him to lie down, which I rewarded)

And then told me I was constantly anxious around him.

I'm anxious because she criticises me/him the minute he utters a woof. I'm not anxious of him. Im anxious of her!

I’d suggest you enroll in some decent training classes which will help you to train him using positive reinforcement.

Do you HAVE to spend time with this person? I'm guessing it's not your mum; is it your sister? Tell her to mind her own bloody business - trying to get you to hit your dog FFS! What an absolute arsehole. I wouldn't go near her, and I wouldn't let my dog near her either.

Tell her next time she does something you don't want too hear she will get a good hiding.

Oh wait you don't do that too people nor animals. Silly bitch