Devastated and just don't know what to do

[diamonte68]

Will try not to waffle too much but i don't want to drip feed so need to give the background.. I have 2 husky crosses who are normally well behaved. I don't let them off lead in open areas but I walk them daily in a secure field and they have great recall to whistle and voice.

I am at home with them 90% of the time (I work from home), however I do have to go to London for a day once or twice a month. A few months ago a delivery driver came when I was in London and opened our gate and literally just drove off and left it open. The dogs wandered off and were brought back about 45 minutes later by someone in the village. I only know about it as we have cameras set up and my husband thought, rather than returning the dogs, that someone was stealing them. I didn't recognise the person that retuned them and nobody left a note or anything. I kicked up a stink with the delivery company and put it behind me. I did buy a chain and padlock for the gate though.

All was fine until 2 weeks ago, I was busy working in my study and someone knocked the door. I was on a conference call, dogs were sleeping in the kitchen. I was distracted and stupid,y didn't close the front door properly (it is a stupid door that doesn't close properly unless you lift the handle), I went back to my computer and carried on with my conference call until about half hour later I heard the front door bang in the wind. I then realised I hadn't shut it properly and so I panicked and called the dogs.. they were not there. I rushed out and ran through the village blowing the whistle, nothing. I quickly called my dog walker and asked if she was nearby and could help look for them, which she did. Eventually after 2 hours we found them, literally 100 yards away in a small field at the back of one of my neighbours houses. I put their leads on and was just taking them home when someone shouted out to me that the dogs had killed some poultry. I was mortified, and gave her my details, she wasn't the owner of the poultry but knew the owners and could see the field from her house so had seen what happened. About half hour later the police turned up saying they had been called because the dogs were causing a nuisance. They came in and I explained what happened and that they didn't break out of the garden but I stupidly had ,eat the door open. They said the only damage they saw was one dead chicken and they weren't classing it as a police matter so it was up to me and the livestock owner to work out. Later that day the owner of the chickens came round carrying a dead cockerel. I apologised profusely and told him I was a twat and had left the door open and I would obviously pay for any damage. He said it was the second time they had been in his field and they had also chased his sheep. I was shocked as I had no idea what he meant by second time, I then realised it was him that had returned them after the delivery driver incident. I told him that I didn't know they had been at his place when they got out before, and as he hadn't left a note or come to tell me how could I know. He said he was going to be getting lots more sheep and that he would not be happy if my dogs got out and attached them again. I promised I would do everything I could to keep them from getting out.

Fast forward to today.. I was mowing the front lawn but the stupid lawn mower kept cutting out and I had no idea why so I called my husband to come and have a look at it. Stupidly he came out and yet again left the door open.. this time wide open. We were both standing there fiddling with the lawn mower and the dogs bolted and I mean bolted out of the house and ran at what must have been 30mph in the direction of the field. My husband took off after them and I ran to get a whistle and their leads. I was just leaving our drive when the dogs came trotting up quickly followed by the farmer. I had no idea what to say to him, he was furious and said he is calling the police and will get the dogs taken away. They didn't get a chance to harm any of his animals but that is only because he was there.

I am literally crying and shaking and have no idea what to do. The dogs are both very well trained, will recall without any issues when out but today they were not stopping for anything.. they knew they were going to the field and nobody was going to stop them. I have put a baby gate between the kitchen and the hall so they can't get to the front door now, but I think it may be too little too late. I just don't know what to do.. they get lots of exercise plus mind games every day.. I take them for a 3 mile walk in the morning and the evening every day plus I do lots of agility and scent training games with them so they're not bored. Just don't know if I can ever trust them again.. I now know that if they ever get out they WILL go back to the field and very likely will kill either more poultry or sheep.

Does anyone have any experience with dogs that have done this? Can they be trained out of it? I will do whatever I can to ensure they do not ever get out but mistakes happen and I just can't guarantee they will never get out again. Is reforming the only alternative?

I can totally understand why the farmer is furious. He has warned you and still it keeps happening. Unfortunately the baby gate should have been put in after the first time but hindsight is such a good thing.

The problem is you say you can't guarantee that they will never escape again. Why can't you gurantee that? If you have a double gate system and you and your husband are sensible then they should never escape. Also recall in safe fields is one thing but recall with distractions is a whole different ballgame (trust me I know and have been working on my dog for months now to come back with a variety of distractions and It takes months and months of practice and we are still working on it).

I think that as you are openly saying your can't guarantee that it won't happen again then I guess you need to rehome them but really I think you should look at putting failsafe systems in place that they cannot just escape and then going cap in hand once more to the farmer and explain how you are going to ensure his animals will be safe.

Oh and lastly no one can open our gate for the dog to accidentally escape because it is padlocked at all times for that simple reason.

You're lucky the farmer didn't shoot them. If you genuinely can't guarantee they won't escape again, the responsible thing to do would be rehome them.

I'm sorry but you are lucky he didn't just shoot them today , which he is entitled to do . I really don't see why you can't guarantee they will never escape again , my dog has never escaped , none of my parents dogs ever escaped , it's not exactly rocket science . I don't think it's reasonable to say 'mistakes happen' , it's very irresponsible and not only is it not fair on the farmer it , it is also not fair on your poor dogs who will ultimately pay the price for doing what comes naturally to them because of your glib attitude .

Once they've chased sheep/killed livestock once, they'll do it again. The thrill of the chase is too much for most dogs I would say.

You obviously love your dogs but I'm from a farming family and there are few things that can be as destructive to livestock as a loose dog.

You cannot train them to not do it again. All you can do is ensure it NEVER happens again and put in place some security measures so that you can show you've done something.

When you go to London do they have free access to the garden then? I would think this is too risky considering what's happened even with a padlock etc. I think the baby gate is a start (you can get extra tall ones from Amazon- we have one for our escapee child with autism!) but I think you need to look at everything else - including the time you're in London as well.

You need to take measures so your dogs can't get out unsupervised. Obviously your current set up isn't adequate if this keeps happening and I'm not surprised the farmer is furious.

You need to use an airlock system when using external doors, so there's always a securely closed interior door between the dogs and the front/back door before they're opened. I wouldn't rely on baby gates as they're far too easy for most dogs to jump over. Can you secure your boundaries with dog proof fencing? You can keep gates locked and have drop boxes for parcels, or have them delivered to pick up points rather than your home. Self closing garden gates are another option though obviously not much use if there's any other way for your dogs to get out of your garden.

Prey drive can't be trained out of a dog, it can only be managed, and once a dog has had the very rewarding experience of chasing (and killing) live prey they're highly likely to do it again as soon as they get the opportunity. If you aren't able to secure your house and garden so they can't escape then I think you need to look seriously at rehoming them.

I don't think anyone can ever say 100% they will never make a mistake that will allow their dogs out. I have had dogs my entire life and I am the wrong side of 50 and have never had any get out.. however I have left doors open by accident or windows open by accident but luckily my dogs in the past never took the opportunity to run like these did. I have had dogs slip collars or leads snap but it has never ended up as a disaster. I never believed in "once a dog kills prey they will always try again" but honestly the way they ran off it was not like my dogs it was as though their prey drive had totally overcome them, so maybe there is something in it.

Bitey my gate is now padlocked at all times, and yes I should have put the baby gate up after the first incident but we had got rid of ours a few months and I only just got the new one today (irony is a sod) I was making sure to lock the front door not just close it but my husband clearly just forgot. Their recall with distractions also took me months and months to work on, they will recall with joggers, horses, other dogs even recalled this morning when they were nose down/bum up chasing after a hare, I only had to blow the whistle once and they stopped dead and came back to me, that's what was so terrifying when they ran off from the house, they completely ignored me and it was like they were totally different dogs.

I will do every single thing I can to make sure they don't ever get out, but i now know if they ever get the smallest of opportunities they will head back to the field. I don't mean to sound "Glib" I am just being realistic, my front door opens onto an open drive - I can't put a gate up at the front as it's a shared drive. They are both young dogs and have another 10-12 years to live I really cannot say that in those years I will never open the door without checking where the dogs are or that my grandkids won't leave a door open or leave the gate open. The only certain way they will never get out the house would be to keep them in the kitchen at all times, not ideal for them.

I was hoping someone would know if there is training that could help the prey drive, but maybe there isn't. I know a very good dog behaviourist (if that's what you call them) but she is on holiday for 2 weeks but will book a consultation with her when she is back.

There is no way you can train them to not want to go back and chase/kill now that they've done it once. Not a hope in hell. I've seen it lots. They will end up getting shot, which a farmer is well within his rights to do.

You're repeatedly making excuses and refusing to acknowledge that you are being negligent. Stop hiding behind the word "accident" like it is akin to an unavoidable act of god. Either take appropriate measures to ensure your dogs can't escape again or accept it will be your fault if they do and you end up losing them.

I work on the principle that my dog given a chance will escape if he could. For me that would probably be fatal as the road at the bottom of our drive is fairly busy during the day.

So we have a secure back garden that he can't dig or jump over. In the front the gate is padlocked but if I am expecting a delivery the dog is kept behind a baby gate so he can't get to the door unless I am actively supervising him. If someone knocked on the door I would always double check that he was again behind his baby gate before opening it. If he is in the front garden even though technically he cannot escape I still keep an eye on him.

You and your DH need to look at your home objectively with the view that they will try and escape and come up with failsafe type solutions such as an airlock type system. You say your DH just forgot, does he understand that the dogs could have been legally shot each time they escaped into the farmers field. From your post I realise that you do as you are frantic but does he because he really cannot afford to just forget again.

If you both put your hands up and say actually they probably will escape again because you can't keep them safe at home then yes rehoming is the next best thing to do because otherwise they will be shot if they continue to kill farm stock

Fairy - yes they have free access to the garden when I go to London. I have to leave home at 6am which is too early for dog day care places. I have a dog walker that comes in twice to take them for their walks. They have never escaped from the garden we have dog proof fences and anti dig borders - basically they can't dig under the fence and the top of the fence tilts inwards so they can't jump over it. The time they got out was because the gate wasn't padlocked - we had a swing lock over the top of the gate but the delivery driver took it upon himself to open the gate and I mean wide open and just drive off.. it never ever occurred to me that someone would just open my gate.. much less leave it open.. we have lived here for over 10 years and that had never happened before. The gate is permanently chained and padlocked now so that won't ever happen again.

How big is your garden? I would construct a large wire kennel/playpen. When you have exercised the dogs and are busy with household chores etc they need to be secured with proper locks and padlocked. At night when you are settled in for the night you can bring them in the house. This is the only way to stop another accident and give you peace of mind. Otherwise they amy be put to sleep.

As a breed huskys need a heck of a lot of exercise daily - they are sled dogs and can go for hours - are they getting enough ?

Invest in door gates (baby gates) if you keep 'forgetting' to close doors and lock gates - then it's hardly surprising the dogs are running off.

I have 4 Bull breeds, they have never got out, we have safety gates, and lockable front and rear gates, it's not hard to keep things secure.

Twice in 2 weeks they have escaped through an open front door , that is not an accident that is negligence . I know that is not what you want to hear but it's true . We have an air lock system ( as described above by cornflake) for our terrier and I can guarantee he will not escape . We also have double fenced areas in the garden so he cannot get near any of the gates .

I hope you know that it is not just the injuries or deaths that will happen when your dogs sink their teeth into the sheep that is the point here. It is the fact that pregnant ewes who are chased and stressed are likely to abort their pregnancies, thereby wiping out a year's income for that farmer.
There is nothing more exciting for a dog than chasing prey, and no training on earth that will now prevent them dashing down to your neighbour's field to worry his sheep again.
They need to be rehomed immediately.
Sad for you, as you've put a lot of work into them, but there is absolutely nothing else for it.
How can that man have any confidence that he's not going to arrive to the scene of a massacre every time he goes to check on his stock? He must be a most decent person not to have shot them both. I certainly would have.

We have an "airlock"at our front door, so front door then another door to get into the main part of the house.
We also have an "airlock" on the back gate. The main gate which leads to the side path then another gate into the garden.
I have no idea whether the dogs we have at the moment would run but the first two we had would and it's a habit we got into.
It is possible it just needs discipline

Gosh I don't envy your situation. I have accidentally let my own dog out several times, however she's a dopey gun dog who at worst wanders around our cul-de-sac sniffing, so the repercussions are mild. Like you, I don't think I could ever guarantee it wouldn't happen again...without making some physical changes to our property, which would mean adding a fence to our front yard.

Because the repercussions for your dogs are so high, you're going to have to really up your game. If they get out again, other animals will be killed, and your dogs may be killed. If you can't make changes to your property to adequately keep the dogs in, then maybe they can't live at that property anymore.

I'm so sorry OP but this is not working. If you live in the country surely you know that he can shoot them and if you cannot contain them, after 3 "accidents" (I know one wasn't your fault) then maybe you just have to accept that, as someone living in a rural area, he can shoot them.

But then, as you say it won't happen again ...?

They are dogs. My dog is very similar but he tends to hunt cat poo and has never caught anything.
He can also open all the doors in the house, and the gate unless it is kept locked, so we keep everything locked. A bit more faff but at least we know the dog is in.
You can keep them in, it's just a change in routine but the alternative is a pretty good incentive for changing your habits.

Thank you for all of the replies. I see that there is a bit of confusion about the animals they hurt. The house they go to is owned by a farmer but it is an arable farm and not even in our village it is a couple of villages away. He has a field behind his house. I call it a field rather than a garden as it is open to the fields at the back. All farms in the village we live in are arable farms there are no sheep or cows for over 10 miles. The farmer has one sheep in his field and some chickens and I am sure I have seen geese and maybe guinea fowls in his field. The farmer said they were chasing his sheep (singular) but didn't hurt it, or if they did he didn't say which I am sure he would have. The only animal they killed was a cockerel and that was in 2 hours of being in his field.

I am sure that sounds like I am minimising, but really it's just to give you the context, we are not surrounded by live stock and my dogs were not threatening anyone's livelihood, the sheep is there for keeping the grass down but they should not have got out and they now think there are "fun" things to play with in the farmers field.

Up until the incident 2 weeks ago the dogs could be out the front if we were there without any worry of running off. One of them sometimes to sleep in the hall at the front door and when the door was opened to let someone in or out he would just look at you with disgust because we were disturbing him rather than trying to rush out..

For those who felt I was making excuses by saying it was an accident that the door was left open, well it wasn't done on purpose so that the dogs could just run out, therefore it was an accident in my eyes. The absolute last thing I want regardless of whether they are likely to hurt another animal or not is for my dogs to get out but I guess we got complacent.. trust me we are not complacent anymore! And I fully accept it was our fault both times, I have not nor will I ever punish the dogs in anyway we completely let them down.

We have decided to get a front enclosed porch built and my husband has been to b&q tonight and bought a self closing thing for the front door which he is installing now, hopefully these things will ensure they don't get out again

Speaking as a long term dog owner here. Whilst I know them getting out is an accident, I don't think you appreciate that even chasing a sheep without biting is enough to kill them and/or result in aborted lambs. Sheep die easily. If the farmer is planning to get more sheep then there will be fatalities if your dogs get out again from the stress of the chase - 2 hours is a long time to be chased for. Please do not minimise the impact of this on the farmer. Additionally I would imagine that all the other chickens went off the lay after that. I don't have any advice for you, I just want you to understand why the farmer is so angry.

But you are minimising.

Chasing the sheep can hurt it - it doesn't need to be bitten to die.

I wish people would get this stupid idea of the 'dog just wanting to play, it won't do any harm' out of their head.

You are most definitely minimising, it doesn't matter whether its livestock or a neighbours chicken or cat . I live miles from any livestock , if my dog got loose he would be over the road killing a cat , he knows where they all live . That would be my fault and it's not acceptable . An accident is the dogs lead snapping , leaving a door open is negligence . At least you sound like you are sorting it out , just ensure that any visitors / GC know that the doors need to be kept shut at all times .