Devastated and just don't know what to do

[diamonte68]

Will try not to waffle too much but i don't want to drip feed so need to give the background.. I have 2 husky crosses who are normally well behaved. I don't let them off lead in open areas but I walk them daily in a secure field and they have great recall to whistle and voice.

I am at home with them 90% of the time (I work from home), however I do have to go to London for a day once or twice a month. A few months ago a delivery driver came when I was in London and opened our gate and literally just drove off and left it open. The dogs wandered off and were brought back about 45 minutes later by someone in the village. I only know about it as we have cameras set up and my husband thought, rather than returning the dogs, that someone was stealing them. I didn't recognise the person that retuned them and nobody left a note or anything. I kicked up a stink with the delivery company and put it behind me. I did buy a chain and padlock for the gate though.

All was fine until 2 weeks ago, I was busy working in my study and someone knocked the door. I was on a conference call, dogs were sleeping in the kitchen. I was distracted and stupid,y didn't close the front door properly (it is a stupid door that doesn't close properly unless you lift the handle), I went back to my computer and carried on with my conference call until about half hour later I heard the front door bang in the wind. I then realised I hadn't shut it properly and so I panicked and called the dogs.. they were not there. I rushed out and ran through the village blowing the whistle, nothing. I quickly called my dog walker and asked if she was nearby and could help look for them, which she did. Eventually after 2 hours we found them, literally 100 yards away in a small field at the back of one of my neighbours houses. I put their leads on and was just taking them home when someone shouted out to me that the dogs had killed some poultry. I was mortified, and gave her my details, she wasn't the owner of the poultry but knew the owners and could see the field from her house so had seen what happened. About half hour later the police turned up saying they had been called because the dogs were causing a nuisance. They came in and I explained what happened and that they didn't break out of the garden but I stupidly had ,eat the door open. They said the only damage they saw was one dead chicken and they weren't classing it as a police matter so it was up to me and the livestock owner to work out. Later that day the owner of the chickens came round carrying a dead cockerel. I apologised profusely and told him I was a twat and had left the door open and I would obviously pay for any damage. He said it was the second time they had been in his field and they had also chased his sheep. I was shocked as I had no idea what he meant by second time, I then realised it was him that had returned them after the delivery driver incident. I told him that I didn't know they had been at his place when they got out before, and as he hadn't left a note or come to tell me how could I know. He said he was going to be getting lots more sheep and that he would not be happy if my dogs got out and attached them again. I promised I would do everything I could to keep them from getting out.

Fast forward to today.. I was mowing the front lawn but the stupid lawn mower kept cutting out and I had no idea why so I called my husband to come and have a look at it. Stupidly he came out and yet again left the door open.. this time wide open. We were both standing there fiddling with the lawn mower and the dogs bolted and I mean bolted out of the house and ran at what must have been 30mph in the direction of the field. My husband took off after them and I ran to get a whistle and their leads. I was just leaving our drive when the dogs came trotting up quickly followed by the farmer. I had no idea what to say to him, he was furious and said he is calling the police and will get the dogs taken away. They didn't get a chance to harm any of his animals but that is only because he was there.

I am literally crying and shaking and have no idea what to do. The dogs are both very well trained, will recall without any issues when out but today they were not stopping for anything.. they knew they were going to the field and nobody was going to stop them. I have put a baby gate between the kitchen and the hall so they can't get to the front door now, but I think it may be too little too late. I just don't know what to do.. they get lots of exercise plus mind games every day.. I take them for a 3 mile walk in the morning and the evening every day plus I do lots of agility and scent training games with them so they're not bored. Just don't know if I can ever trust them again.. I now know that if they ever get out they WILL go back to the field and very likely will kill either more poultry or sheep.

Does anyone have any experience with dogs that have done this? Can they be trained out of it? I will do whatever I can to ensure they do not ever get out but mistakes happen and I just can't guarantee they will never get out again. Is reforming the only alternative?

I've taken my dog on a stock-training course which was very helpful. It turns out that (as we thought) she has already been stock trained for sheep (tries not to look at them) but we reinforce her training whenever we get the chance. However, we were there with a labrador who had killed about 30 of the neighbours award winning show bantams and they got lots of help with that too. If you're midlands/ north west ish (although I did mine in Lincolnshire) I can give you the name of the trainer who I highly recommend.

I think even the first time you were responsible... you should have made so that the dogs couldn't have gotten out. surely you must have been expecting the delivery? the next two times are down to utter idiocy it seems.
you seem to not be bothered that it's only one sheep etc.
you'll will end up with the poor dogs being shot. stop making excuses.

Oh mistlethrush thank you! I am in Lincolnshire so would be great if you could give me the details. I am more than willing to travel wherever I need to but if there is something reasonably local then that is a bonus and having a recommendation from someone who has used the trainer personally is even better.

Calmanban - the delivery wasn't even for me, so no I was not expecting it. As I work from home and I live in a fairly small village I tend to be the one that takes in everyone's parcels as I am usually at home. The delivery driver didn't even need to open the gate - we have a parcel box at the side of the house in front of the gate. My guess is that he thought I was in the garden and opened the gate to check but then realised I wasn't there and just drove off.

I have lived at this house for over 10 years and our gates have been closed for all of that time we have never ever had anyone open them. Even our window cleaner climbs over the gate with his ladders if we are out, I have never had an explanation from the delivery company as to why the driver did that or why he just drove off with them open.

I am very bothered with what has happened it doesn't matter how many animals they attacked. I was and still am mortified that they killed an animal and very likely hurt others. If I wasn't bothered I would not be asking about training or trying to get some ideas on how I can make sure it doesn't happen again. I wasn't trying to make excuses for what I did with the doors I genuinely thought I had closed it properly but clearly I didn't, that is not an excuse, it is the detail on what happened. I hope none of my posts have come over as me putting the blame somewhere else, I don't blame the dogs and I definitely don't blame the owner of the animals, the only people at fault here are me and my husband. The reasons it happened I have explained but not by way of trying to say it wasn't my fault but just to give the background. The delivery driver was clearly a massive tit who also just didn't use his brain cells, however, I realise that not locking my gate with a padlock was my fault and, again, I have said as much and I rectified that straight away.

I have managed to get through 50 years of life with owning over 10 dogs in that time and raise 2 children and hold down a stressful job so I don't think I am some dimwitted idiot who doesn't realise that dogs will go through an open door if given the opportunity. Neither do I, or have I ever made a habit of just leaving doors open. However, I made a mistake, while distracted on a conference call, I closed the door but didn't make sure it was fully latched and I paid the price for that. My husband just didn't think when he came out to speak to me in the front garden he feels awful and really can't say why he didn't close the door behind him but it wasn't because he was naive enough to think the dogs would just stay inside.

Anyway we are taking steps to ensure everything possible is done to remove human error and therefore make it as impossible as we can for the dogs to ever get out of the house.

I have contacted a friend of mine who works in a dog shelter, she is going to come and see me next week to chat about putting them up for re homing, it is still an option but not one i want to take.

I dunno really you sound perfectly human and reasonable to me.

We stay on a farm in the middle of nowhere and in total there are probably fifteen dogs. Three in my house, three in sisters and nine working. These things, with the best will in the world, do happen.

We have had a dog kill a chicken, sad but has happened. The important thing is taking steps to prevent it happening again and you are doing that. You have considered the escaping aspect and the future training.

Farmers are not usually unreasonable about these things. People repeatedly ignoring us and letting dogs cause havoc is unacceptable. I have only seen one incident locally where the dog was shot. The owner had been warned repeatedly and sheep were killed. Another massive issue around here is gates being left open by walkers. The chaos that follows with mixed stock can take days to rectify.

I would go and talk to the farmer and explain what steps you will be taking and apologise again, for future relations if nothing else. If they see you are responsible and taking steps to deal with it that's much better than silence. He probably was cross at the time but a reasonable discussion after the event can help. You never know he might even be able to help with training. My sister has done this on occasion with dogs and sheep.

You say "I don't think anyone can ever say 100% they will never make a mistake that will allow their dogs out".

Sorry but that is not true. I have had 14 dogs over a period of 40 years and none of them have ever got out of my house.

I too have an "airlock" system with a door between the dogs and the front door and an inner fence and gate between the house and back gate.

The back gate and side gate are both padlocked. I once had taken the padlock off the back in order to take something out through the back gate. The gate was closed though and I suddenly heard my dog barking like mad - he rarely barks. I looked out and some idiot delivery driver was walking from the back gate towards the inner fence and gate.

I flew out the back and gave the driver a piece of my mind. I have a perfectly fine front door with a knocker and doorbell (that he hadn't bothered to go to) plus if my dog had got to him I have no doubt he would have bitten him as he is a good guard dog.

Stupid driver said "oh other people have no problem with me going to the back with their parcel"! I live on a main road with plenty of parking space and yet he decided to drive round to the back where it is difficult to park!

slightly off subject mydog but that's when people on MN usually say you were mean to the driver and should consider yourself lucky he even thought about delivering your parcel, let alone to the right house ...

thanks fourpaws it's good to get perspective from someone in the farming community who has actually faced the same scenario.
I will definitely let him know what steps I've taken and invite him round to see if there's anything else he can suggest we do. We went and got window restrictors and are putting them in all downstairs windows so no windows can be opened more than a crack. They have never even attempted to get out of the windows but it struck me that if they climb onto the sofa it's pretty easy to get out if the window was open.

The farmer refused any money for the chicken so I was thinking of getting a bottle of wine and a case of beer but I'm now wondering if that would look like I am attempting to compensate for something awful by buying them wine and beer, which obviously doesn't come close to making up for what my actions caused.

We have also now got a proper bolt for the gate in the back garden. The one the delivery driver opened was our side gate, we have a large courtyard between the side gate and the back garden which the dogs used to have access to but I have now bolted the back gate too so they would have to get through 2 bolted and locked gates to get out.

I am still a neurotic mess though, I won't leave them in a room on their own so I always know where they are, I even considered crating them when I went for my shower this morning but luckily my husband came downstairs so I felt ok to leave them with him. God knows how I will get through the day when he is at work.

The first time wasn't the OP fault though

I don't think you are minimising what happened at all.

I do, however, think that you have been very careless on several occasions. I think you now know this though, and are taking steps to stop it happening again.

I have two dogs, a 13 year old labrador and a 12 year old cocker spaniel. They have never got out, but it does take constant vigilance. The hardest part was training my DH and the DDs to "shut that bloody door/gate", which became my war cry every time one of them went anywhere.

Did you say you will be getting a padlock for your garden gates now as well as the bolts? Bolts are fine, but sometimes delivery drivers or postmen might just reach over and open one. A padlock will stop that happening.

The side gate is chained and padlocked and has been since the delivery driver left it open. The back gate is not accessible from the road.. hard to explain really but basically no one can get to the back garden without either going through our house or through the side gate. We have a paved courtyard and detached double garage behind the side gate then between the garage and the back of my house there's another fence with a gate separating the garden from the courtyard.. I call that gate the back gate. So basically we now have 2 outdoor areas that are fully enclosed. If we put the dogs in the back garden and close the back gate they can't get to the courtyard which in itself is secured by a padlocked gate that leads to the front of the house / driveway.

Hope that makes sense

Sounds like you have it all in hand , hope it works out moving forward . I certainly wouldn't rehome unless the neighbour insists . I'd go round with a bottle / box of chocolates and tell him your plans so he knows you are taking it seriously.

I too think it's a good idea to pop round to your neighbour and tell him what you've done to stop it happening again. Another apology and bottle of whisky might be a good idea too.

Hi op, have you considered the invisible dog fence option? It secures your boundary using a high pitched noise transmitted through a tiny receiver on their collars, they will stop as they approach the boundary and turn back as the noise gets unpleasant for them.
If ever they got out it would be effective to stop them.

Whilst l feel for your situation, Huskys are probably one of the most difficult breeds to have in a domestic setting, as they are bred to run endlessly hour after hour pulling considerable weight, you will never train that desire to run and keep running out of them.

Your only solution is foulproof layers of barriers, please Google invisible dog fence.

I lived on a farm growing up and have known of several farmers shooting dogs that strayed on to their land, please secure your property properly.

Huskys also see an open door / gate as an invitation to run and keep running, so really do require multiple barriers to ensure they can't get out! Hopefully your new plans and set up will contain them, big notices on all doors reminding you to double check they are fully closed before you open the next door are useful to get you into the habit of double checking!

Fucking hell, done of the comments on here are uncalled for. Calling the OP names is horrible.

I'm shocked at what a hard time you're getting here. To me, you sound like you're taking full responsibility and taking extreme steps to prevent it again. You are correct in saying you can never be 100%- no one can and anyone who claims to be is deluded (it may never have happened to them in the past, but it is always possible )

I was actually going to ask whether a porch might be an option, then thought it was a ridiculous question- I was so happy to see you're planning one! It'll give you another 'airlock' to use. A gate would also be brilliant (possibly even better than a porch, if you think you'd be likely to leave the internal door open as I do)- both together would be perfect! A gate may also add value to your house as people like gated driveways since they are considered more secure.

I cannot believe how rude and harsh some people are being, and the suggestion that you rehome them is ludicrous. I say that as someone from a farming family who fully understands how unacceptable loose dogs are. Uprooting two settled dogs into the rehoming system when they already have a fantastic loving home is an awful suggestion. You would have to be honest with the history or risk it happening again, and so they will seriously struggle to be rehomed anywhere near the countryside (no rehoming centre would take the chance).

As a pp has already said, please be careful when finding someone to 'stock train', as some will be using really quite unpleasant outdated methods and it's easy to get caught up in their confidence.

How confident are you in your garden being secure? I'd be a little nervous of leaving them outside for the timebeing whilst the joy of the chase is still fresh.

Make sure your dog walker is fully aware of the situation and that any walks take place in the opposite direction to the farm/smallholding/garden.

Please, please don't feel you should be rehoming (unless there are other reasons not said here). The efforts you are planning to go to are far more than most people would even consider. For that I think we should be commending you, not slating you as some people seem to have done.

Sorry, have just re-read and the gate situation for your back garden sounds good- just check the fences very carefully for any loose panels and make sure they can't dig (I think you said it's dig-proof? Sorry, forgot!)

i'm in Canada and i know the uk perspective is different but an e-collar and some professional training can work wonders for certain behaviors such as bolting.
before rehoming a dog that is loved and a loyal pet consider getting a little extra help beyond the fencing/gate options.

you've had a right kicking in this thread op. Well done for remaining reasonable and polite in reply. Good luck with the dogs.

Thank you to those that are being so supportive. I did get a flaming but some of it was deserved, what I did was stupid.

Builders are coming tomorrow to quote for the porch and front gate. I have spoken to a couple of dog trainers but with it being the holiday period it looks like it will be a while before I can get a consultation but have been given some good tips on what to do to help for now.

I now have a STOP - CHECK DOGS sign at eye level on the front door plus an automatic door closer so the door can't be left open by accident, a baby gate between the kitchen and the entrance hall and window restrictors so they can't be opened wide enough for a dog to get through.

I don't think the "invisible fence" is an option for me. i know they are widely used in some countries but they aren't common here in the U.K. and are banned in some parts of the country. As many people have pointed out already, keeping them in is possible so with some extra dog training, some minor building work plus a lot of human training I am hopeful that it won't happen again.

i'm in Canada and i know the uk perspective is different but an e-collar and some professional training can work wonders for certain behaviors such as bolting.

I agree with your advice about professional training (the positive variety), but e-collars are not recommended and are banned in some parts of the UK, quite rightly so as they cause suffering to dogs. There are ways to prevent dogs from wandering, but the best of all is good physical management not causing pain to your dog because of your own inability to manage them.

The babygate sounds like a good idea. Maybe have it shut all the time, not just when you're opening the door as this will help everyone get in the habit of closing the gate every time they go through it?

How about a security chain on the front door as well? If you get into the habit of using this all the time if the door does blow open/not get shut properly again then it won't open enough for a dog to get out.

There is a security chain on the front door and I have started using it. It also acts as a good reminder to check the dogs, as it stops me opening the door while on 'auto pilot'.

I am doing lots of sit stays at every exit door. There are 3 doors that lead from the house to the garden, so I am working with the dogs not to go through any exit door without my permission. I am also working on not allowing them out of their crates in the morning until they are sitting and again not until they have been given the 'release' word. They have always been trained not to push past me to get out of a door but I didn't take it to the point where they wouldn't go out to the back garden when nobody was there. When the weather is nice I have the doors from the kitchen to the garden open during the day and they always wandered in and out as they wanted, the advice from one of the trainers is to stop that freedom as they need to know they cannot leave the house at all (even to go in to the back garden) without permission. I gave them a bit too much freedom and expected them to know they can go in and out of the back doors but can't do the same with the front door. I have gone right back to basics. All doors are staying closed and they are being let out every few hours but they have to sit and stay at the door until I tell them they can go. I have had mixed results so far but they are so clever I am sure they will get it very quickly.