Dog breeds that won't turn on children

[Chickpearocker]

I really want to get a dog but with having a toddler I'm terrified of getting a dog that would bite it seriously hurt him. Are there any breeds that are safer than others, or less likely to turn. I've been told that surprisingly smaller breeds can be quite viscious even though they look small and innocent. Please help!

I don't think Costa is meaning to be rude but you really don't seem to be well informed. You seem to think only certain breeds bite children or chase livestock.

No I don't think it's only certain breeds that will bite or worry sheep, it's just that I had an impression maybe from the media or mainstream news that some dog breeds are more likely to attack because of their nature, just as some dog breeds are prone to certain illnesses. Like a lot of people who are not 'dog people' I probably do have misconceptions about dogs for example the Staffordshire bull terrier. I do accept a lot is down to the dogs upbringing and the owner but I do feel that each dog breed has particular characteristics which could make them desirable or less desirable. I really don't see how telling someone they are naive or stupid helps them in a meaningful way. It's kind of like before you have a child you imagine it to be a certain way and then reality hits and you learn on the job.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/dog-breed-most-likely-to-attack-bite-you-revealed-a7166296.html

Don't get a dog while you have a toddler, it's an accident waiting to happen

I do accept a lot is down to the dogs upbringing and the owner but I do feel that each dog breed has particular characteristics which could make them desirable or less desirable.

There absolutely are such things as breed-specific traits, it's why different breeds are used to do different jobs. It's also the case that dog behaviour does have a very strong genetic component (there's an excellent article on the subject from a veterinary behaviourist here) but breed alone is not an reliable predictor of behaviour or temperament.

If you're looking to buy a puppy it is the most sensible first step to read up on different breeds, try different breed selector quizzes and research, research, research to find the one which is most likely to suit your family and lifestyle. That's only part of the equation though, you also need to find a breeder who is specifically breeding for the kind of temperament and traits that you want in a dog. Even then there are no guarantees but two dogs who have really good, sound temperaments are more likely to produce puppies who are the same, just as two dogs who are excellent workers (in whatever field is appropriate for their breed) or sport dogs are more likely to produce puppies who will also be good workers or sport dogs.

This is one of the (many) reasons why it's so important to find a good breeder, rather than just getting a puppy from the closest breeder who happens to have puppies available. You want to be sure they've given temperament appropriate consideration as part of their breeding plans. When breeders don't do this you start to see temperament issues creeping into breeds, such as nervousness in German Shepherds or a tendency to resource guard in Golden Retrievers.

Buying a puppy from a breeder isn't about guarantees, it's about stacking the odds as much in your favour as possible by finding a breeder aiming for health, sound conformation and the right sort of traits and temperament you want.

I'd always recommend starting a search for a puppy by going through the relevant breed society (there's a list of all Irish breed clubs here on the IKC site and as you're in Northern Ireland it's also worth looking on the KC site as well) and asking for recommendations for members who are breeding dogs likely to suit your requirements. It's so worth putting in the effort at this stage and being patient if you need to go on a waiting list for a pup. A good, responsible breeder who will offer you advice and support throughout the life of the dogs they've bred really is worth their weight in gold.

"It's kind of like before you have a child you imagine it to be a certain way and then reality hits and you learn on the job."

Not really, most people have a basic understanding of what is involved with looking after a child, also you've got a much longer time to work things out.

You don't need to figure out if your garden is secure enough for a toddler while you're pregnant because you've got a year or two before they'll be moving about in it under their own steam, you'll see them start to crawl and stand, it's a nice day, you'll suddenly think, hmm, they can get stuck in that gap over there - I'd better get a new fence before next summer.

A dog has escaped on the first day you own them.

Btw, bites by breed always roughly correlate to how many dogs of that breed there are, if you read down the article you posted, it says that lab's are most likely to bite and the most popular breed.

No, naive isn't rude - it's a description of how you come across on here op

Since I haven't a lot to do today (not normal, so I feel at a loose end) I thought I'd look for dog bite stats compared to breed.

I found some stats from the USA; oddly, given how many dog bites occur each year, there doesn't seem to have been a huge amount of research into the topic of whether aggression is breed-specific, if an aggressive dog can be rehabilitated etc. (There is some, e.g. a finding that the owners of very aggressive dogs are often aggressive themselves).

US breeds ranked by fatal attacks
Pits (includes pits, the Staff and the American Staff)
Rotties
GSDs
Huskies
Wolf hybrids
Malamutes
Dobes
Chows
St Bernard
Gt. Danes

Rank by popularity (American Kennel Club registrations, 2008):
Pit bull – no record for pit bull, but Staff + Am Staff would come in about 50th
Rottie – 14
GSD – 3
Husky – 23
Wolf Hybrid – no record, but I think they're quite unusual
Malamute – 59
Dobe – 18
Chow – 66
St Bernard - 45
Dane – 22

These stats are for fatalities, but obviously there are dogs of small breeds that manage to bite (and some bite very badly); however, being smaller they tend to do less damage. By contrast, there are some big dogs high up the rankings that clearly bite people sometimes, but which do not feature in the top ten of breeds/types implicated in fatal attacks (Labs at No. 1, Goldens at 4, boxers at 6, poodles at 9, GSPs at 16 - four of those are retrieving breeds bred to be soft-mouthed).

There is loads of research on breeds and aggression, you'll find a summary and references in Lindsay's Handbook of Applied Dog Behaviour and Training (an amazing set of books in every way). Lindsay has a few studies that show that the largest number of bites per breed changes with the popularity of the breeds. The more people have Rotties, GSDs or Pitts the more people get bitten by these dogs.

In general the only correlation studies find is between certain breeds, e.g. GSD, and willingness to bite which is a technical requirement for higher level obedience work and not necessarily a characteristic of aggressiveness.

The best family dog is a cavalier King Charles spaniel. But unfortunately they are plagued with health problems that they don't deserve.

So after extensive research we got a cavalier cross bichon. We also got a female as they are generally easier to train than males. And she's a perfect little dog. Wouldn't dream of biting and loves people.

We attended 2 sets of puppy training classes and made a big effort to ensure she was well socialised.

Whichever breed of dog you decide to get, make sure it is properly socialised and trained and you should be fine.

Good luck.

There is loads of research on breeds and aggression, you'll find a summary and references in Lindsay's Handbook of Applied Dog Behaviour and Training
Thank you. I was just using Google, which obviously doesn't have everything, and probably didn't spend enough time looking.

What interested me about the stats I found, though, was that some breeds were clearly more likely to cause fatal injury than one would expect given their relative popularity. This is probably due to an extent to the relative size and power of the dogs, but it's also interesting that some large breeds don't figure in these stats.

I'll go and do some more research.

"What interested me about the stats I found, though, was that some breeds were clearly more likely to cause fatal injury than one would expect given their relative popularity. This is probably due to an extent to the relative size and power of the dogs, but it's also interesting that some large breeds don't figure in these stats."

The issue is that the stats are all flawed...

There's no real way of knowing how many pit bulls there are in the us for instance, for the same reason that they can only estimate staffies here...

The registered ones are not most of the population, there are thousands (possibly millions in the US) of not kc registered dogs, plus crosses and anything that looks vaguely similar and they'll all count as pit bulls as far as reports of attacks.

Plus, you're looking at fatal attacks, they're rare, they're hard to actually pull anything meaningful from as far as breed goes.

There are studies that show common factors in fatal attacks, they disregarded breed as a factor after looking at them because it wasn't statistically significant - things like a history of abuse and neglect, the victim not living with the dog and the dog's owner not being present came top.

You've also got to factor in the owner... what sort of person owns wolf hybrids? It isn't someone looking for a family pet, it's not even a domesticated animal, nevermind a pet.

Sadly, breeds with a reputation for aggression do attract owners who are more likely to create a problematic dog alongside the more normal owners.

With just bites, the reason there aren't many stats on breed is that they're too hard to collect, in most cases you'd be relying on victim or witness identification, people are not great at identifying dog breeds, again crosses of lots of breeds are likely to be described as a pit bull or staffy...even if they're actually a lab cross.

Anecdotally I know a Great Dane owner who has been asked more than once if he's a Dalmatian, I've been asked if my Rottie is a black lab and a mastiff - he is a completely normal looking Black and Tan Rottie.

And again I'm going to point out that soft mouthed does not refer to bite strength or willingness to bite - it specifically refers to how they carry things, it's irrelevant in a pet dog, they won't be carrying people.

My dog has a soft mouth. She loves her food but if you give her a treat she's very gentle.

I honestly think it's wise to look at everything you can find when you're looking for a dog to get.

Smaller breeds, especially terriers, tend to yap and snap. I'd never have one. Bigger breeds like GSDs are bred as guard dogs, I love them but not with children.

I'd go for a golden retriever.

"My dog has a soft mouth. She loves her food but if you give her a treat she's very gentle."

That isn't what it means though.

The best family dog is a cavalier King Charles spaniel. But unfortunately they are plagued with health problems that they don't deserve.

So after extensive research we got a cavalier cross bichon

Just want to point out that crossing a cavalier does not stop the health issues (bar meaning they could only be carriers of a couple of the genetic issues - issues which reputable breeders have already totally eliminated from their lines anyway). It can also add in new problems by adding issues from the bichon too. Also parents of crosses, generally, aren't at all health checked.

So ultimately a well bred, pedigree cavalier stands a greater chance of being healthy than most cavalier crosses.

It is incredibly hard to find a good breeder of them though. I was incredibly sceptical of my dogs breeder - I'd just watched that panorama puppy farm program. but it all checked out and once I'd actually met him and his dogs I believe he was 100% genuine. He is breeding his 6th generation of Cavaliers, All his dogs are genetically clear of the genetically testable issues (non are even carriers), they are heart healthy (he has them checked up to 10yrs old and no issues) and MRIs show clear for Syringomyelia (I double checked these things, not only using his paperwork but also checked health tests recorded on myKC).

'Soft mouthed' refer to gundog breeds that can carry shot birds back to their handler without damaging them so they are still fit for human consumption.

Anecdotally I know a Great Dane owner who has been asked more than once if he's a Dalmatian, I've been asked if my Rottie is a black lab and a mastiff - he is a completely normal looking Black and Tan Rottie.

WTF?!?
Who on earth thinks a normal black and tan rottie could be a black Labrador - they are both incredibly well known dog breeds and look completely different. Even the idea of rottie being a mastiff is ridiculous. Was the great Dane spotty?? If not then there is really no excuse for thinking it is a Dalmatian - if it is spotty I think someone who had very little to do with dogs could make that error - after all (as DC) we are often programmed to see white with black spots and automatically think Dalmatian.

My dog often gets mistaken for a Cocker (he is a Cavalier) but at least you can easily see why (I have a ruby cav, so you can get cockers the same sort of colour), a small Cocker can just about be his height, they both have that Spaniel fur and ears and they do have similarities in their faces. But to someone who knows more about cockers and/or cavaliers, the difference is obvious.

"Who on earth thinks a normal black and tan rottie could be a black Labrador - they are both incredibly well known dog breeds and look completely different. Even the idea of rottie being a mastiff is ridiculous. Was the great Dane spotty??"

He's a Merle Dane... so I'd say not even as "spotty" as a harlequin plus, huge and Dane shaped... and yes I have no clue how a Rottie looks like lab and it was even more disconcerting that they actually said black when he's not, lol.

The issue though is more that when people don't know what breed a dog is, they guess rather than describing it. So dogs become pit bulls or staffies instead of just unknown dogs.

The issue is that the stats are all flawed...
I accept that. I meant to say when I posted that I realise that many, many dogs in the US are not registered with any registry (and many of those probably don't belong to any identifiable breed). I would expect, however, that dogs involved in fatal attacks would be ID'ed with a reasonable degree of accuracy. I could be wrong there, however.

And again I'm going to point out that soft mouthed does not refer to bite strength or willingness to bite - it specifically refers to how they carry things, it's irrelevant in a pet dog, they won't be carrying people.
I know that. I just thought it was an interesting observation, and I wondered if it might be significant. You have told me that it isn't.

Sadly, breeds with a reputation for aggression do attract owners who are more likely to create a problematic dog alongside the more normal owners.
I absolutely accept that. However, the two dogs that have bitten my dogs were a rottie x dobe (I know the owner, elderly lady, not remotely aggressive herself, the dog was as well socialised as my own dog) and a staff (the dog was being walked by a woman who did not herself act aggressively and who was very apologetic). It's quite possible that my consequent caution of those types/breeds of dog is unnecessary, since anecdote is not data, so I shall carry on reading.

I would expect, however, that dogs involved in fatal attacks would be ID'ed with a reasonable degree of accuracy.

Actually an in depth study done by the American Veterinary Medical Association into common factors amongst fatal dog bites/attacks found that breed could only be reliably established in 18% of cases over a ten year period.

There's a good breakdown of the study here, unfortunately the link at the bottom to a full analysis no longer works but it's still very interesting reading.

Id probably look at something like a bichon frise to be honest. Not particularly high energy, not going to require masses of mental stimulation required like a poodle would, not very stubborn, but not stupid either, and they're pretty easy to take with you in a way that a labrador would not be for eg. You can keep the coat clipped so minimal grooming requirements. As they're a toy breed theyve not been bred to herd or catch small squeaky things like collies and terriers respectively have, or bred to guard like gsds, and don't need the exercise and stimulation and aren't as crazy as most gundogs and they don't tend to have the attitude problems that some small breeds can have (small dog syndrome!) Something in the toy group is probably your best bet. But not any kind of terrier.

Cornflake, I found [[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24299544 a PubMed summary of that article]] on the internet this afternoon.

I came across two or three PubMed abstracts which said that breed wasn't a factor, compared to 6 or 7 that said it was. In some of these abstracts there was no indication about how the dog breeds had been identified, or by whom, so obviously in those cases it is possible that anything that bit and had four legs and a tail was called a pit bull (if short-coated) or a GSD (if fluffy).

However, in some research from Australia, almost 80% of bites to children were delivered a familiar dog, and 30% of those dogs were either 'from the bull terrier group' or JRTs (JRT being a catch-all term for small mostly-white terrier). Given the proportion of the children bitten by a known dog, the rate of misidentification is probably fairly low. I am pretty sure that those two broad types do not comprise 30% of Australia's dog population.

There was also this research from Canada which noted a significant decline in dog bites in areas where pit bulls had been effectively outlawed. I am not saying that breed specific legislation is the answer, because research from Germany seems to indicate that it isn't, but it does look as if some dogs from certain breeds are more likely than the average to deliver damaging bites.

Whether this is entirely due to poor socialisation, abusive owners and those dogs being in situations where they are more likely to be provoked is to my mind currently unproven.

We (i.e. my family of origin and myself over the years) have had the following breeds.

Collies (several - all working dogs)
Labrador
Jack Russell
Shih Zsu
King Charles Spaniel
Cocker Spaniel
Golden cocker spaniel

One of maybe 8 collies snapped (at me). Another few of them were wicked enough until their master (my Dad - a farmer) was there.

The only one to bite was the Cocker Spaniel. A little girl came up from behind him and put her arms around him and he bit her on the face. He was put down.

The Labrador was a ferocious guard dog and nobody including the milkman was safe, but she never actually bit. She was a puppy with the family and soft as butter. I think my mother trained her to be like that though in fairness.

The rest were absolutely fine.

I like little jack russells. Yappy little yokes, but trained right, they're gorgeous.

Have not RTFT but agree to wait.

We have two dogs and about to have a child. One is pedigree poodle who we've had since a pup, as my first dog, and non moulting then, since I've been pregnant, we've taken on my FIL's collie cross as they moved away. Timing not great there but....

Poodle is great with DH and i, very very loving, doesn't snap etc. But, our nephew pulled her ears when he was coming up to 18 months and she did growl then- the dogs in their family are MUCH bigger and not floppy eared so he didn't understand then. He's still boisterous with her now, at two and has to be closely supervised to pat gently so that she won't just run away or understandably show she's scared.

Collie cross spent a lot of Xmas herding him, with a bit of snapping. Despite having been fine with him previously.

I am conscious that I am going to have to work incredibly hard with my child and these dogs to minimise stress for all of them and avoid injury. I will have to be vigilant all the time, probably till DC goes to school. There will be gates/ playpens.

There's a lot of great information here, I will
Look into the bichon frise breed. I think the main problem I will have is getting a good breeder in Northern Ireland or the republic. There are so many people advertising on gumtree and Facebook and I want to avoid that.

Bichons & cavalier x bichons come up really frequently in NI rescues if you keep an eye out. They come up in pounds south of the border on a regular basis as well.

Cavaliers in Need NI especially always have some, though I'm aware they have an 'older children' policy ( in part because many of their dogs are puppy farm rescues)