Would any poodle cross owners be interested in a separate forum on here where we can (hopefully) talk without judgement?

[DoodlesInTheHouse]

Genuine question. I asked MNHQ about this (under different name, if you are looking at this MNHQ) and they said to ask on here to see if there was interest.

I understand fully the views of some that some poodle crosses are not a good idea for a variety of reasons (puppy farming, health checks, various other reasons etc etc), but we also have our own reasons on why they suited our family, why we chose not to rescue at that time (and very likely will rescue in years ahead) and we are very, very happy with our choices. We are intelligent adults and made an informed choice. I come from a very dog-oriented family and knew what we were doing.

It seems impossible to ask a question about poodle crosses on here without being jumped on. It wouldn't be the done thing if we were talking about breast v formula, or SAHM v working mums, but it seems to be acceptable to ridicule the choices that some of us have made.

Would anyone be interested?

I spoke to Kimberlines and even if we'd had that much money to chuck away, wewould not have bought from him. I didn't like his answers to my more searching questions.

I don't hold him as my bench mark for good breeding.

PirateSmile - they would be interesting points, if they were sensible points.

Firstly the standard poodle hip mean score is currently 12...as is the Labrador one, why if you want to lower hip scores would you pick a breed with the same mean score?

Secondly improving vigour in dogs doesn't have to mean outcrossing, just using different lines is enough to do that, so again, why use a different breed rather than just picking studs more carefully? These are not rare breeds, there is plenty of genetic diversity available within the breeds.

I can't decide if that article is just poorly written or if they don't actually understand how genetics works.

The breed mean hip scores for labs and standard poodles are very similar, as far as hips go crossing them is little different to breeding pedigree labs or poodles.

If the issue is high COI as a result of only breeding from dogs with the lowest scores then either importing lines or an outcrossing programme using a breed with less of a tendency for hip problems would be more logical than crossing to a breed with similar issues.

There are lab and standard poodle breeders who are consistently producing dogs whose hip scores are below the breed average, it's not something unique to crosses.

I've no idea how much their dogs are. As I said, we didn't get our dog from there.

In fact, no, sorry, that was the period before the last one, labs mean hip score was 9 and poodles 10.

So even worse, they're 'improving' Labrador hips by breeding them with a breed with a slightly higher mean score.

They could of course just use dogs of the same breed but we can't have a Labrador despite loving the breed so for us the mix of the two breeds was a good option.

Why not just get a poodle? Because the poodles I meet out walking are frequently skittish, highly strung and yappy.

Why not just get a lab? Because labs shed a lot and I don't have the time or the inclination to vacuum the house every day.

Why not get a rescue? Because the Dogs Homes near me are full of Staffy crosses of various kinds with unknown temperaments, with a few Huskies and Border Collies which were surrendered because people didn't do enough research and found their exercise needs too high.

You don't know what you're getting with a crossbreed. Our dog is a 6th generation labradoodle X labradoodle. They breed pretty true by then - she has the curly non-shedding coat and intelligence of a poodle, and the friendly-with-all-people-and-animals, biddable nature of the Labrador. Her exercise needs are moderate, she doesn't bark or howl. She's lovely with my kids and their friends. Surely that's pretty close to the perfect dog for the vast majority of people who live in towns and want a nice family pet?

Oh and before people object, yes, I've made these points from my personal perspective, but I imagine my thought processes were similar to those of many other intelligent, thinking people who weigh up their needs with the information available and make an informed choice for their families.

The hip score claims are just silly. The way to lower hip scores is to only breed low scored dogs with low scored dogs. By the way I would never look at a GSD pup whose parents were not both in the single digits for hip scores, a 12 would be out of the question. And there are many factors that affect the hind legs, for example, while hip scoring has changed the incidence of hip dysplasia in GSDs, degenerative myelopathy a disease which is closest to human MS is still very much present as the genetic test is only a few years old, or the dog may have a hernia which pretty much any dog can get - to diagnose all this you need a specialist vet and expensive tests, not just look at the neighbour's dog and claim it has week legs therefore xxx is the way to go.

"6th generation labradoodle breeds true" is optimistic to put it politely.

But even if we all accept that your statement with regards 6th generation breeds true , most "poos " and "doodles" that are sold are first generation crosses .

Not around here (not in UK) - the vast majority are at least 3 or 4 generations, and have a pretty consistent "look" and temperament.

...and how many dogs were bred to get to that 3/4/5/6 generation cross? How many of them died? How many bitches had emergency surgery? How many ended up in pounds or rescues? How many dogs were bought into a saturated market?

And how much money did the breeder make pimping their dogs out?

I skipped around five pages here so someone may have already said these things.

OP, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't on Mumsnet as far as dogs go.

You need to research breeds carefully to find out what works for your family yet breeding is terrible and everyone should get a mongrel rescue. (Nothing against mixed breeds; my previous dog was one from an accidental litter and a sweeter and better old boy there never was)

You must treat them as much a part of the family as anyone else yet you must keep them seperated from anyone under the age of 21 by baby gates at all times.

The shelters are full of pets and it's terrible yet if you want to adopt a dog you mustn't work, must be able to go on five mile hikes every day, and must be able to afford a diet of raw yak livers.

I had a (free) mixed breed, then we tried a rescue who bit my daughter and had to be rehomed, then we researched breeds and paid $$ for a Labrador pup. Given my family situation at the time of each dog, they all seemed like the right decision.

queen I liked your post (and am a doodle fan!) but I don't agree with the poodle comment. There are a few standard poodles near us and without exception, they are gorgeous dogs.

They are large which puts some people off, and their coats need regular clipping, but they are gorgeous.

One question for all you nay sayers - why the assumption that doodle breeders are all money grabbing, dog abusers compared to breeders of other dogs? Is it because any one who breeds (or indeed owns) a dog with a childish name must therefore be thick and disinterested in animal welfare?

Big jump to make. I suggest you direct your vitriole towards dog breeders more generally.

The more established doodle breeders - the Australian ones - are aiming to produce healthy and happy dogs and minimising problems. Which is more than can be said for GSDs with their sloping backs or King Charles with their popping brains or any other problematic breeds.

Because money is the only reason to purposely cross breed. ANY cross breed. So crossbreeders are in it for the money. Poodle cross breeds are no better than poodles. They can't be 'shown', they aren't better at 'working', they aren't more intelligent or more suited to families. So they are bred for money.

I understand specific breeds being bred to work - collies and spaniels for the fields, decent GSDs for protection, JRTs for ratting, labs and goldies for assistance etc. I don't like it, but I understand it.

But to purposely cross a poodle to get another 'breed' for no reason other than 'nice pet dog' (and they are, lovely pet dogs) - and to charge wads of cash for it is wrong when there are hundreds of dogs already out there that make nice pet dogs and are literally dying for good homes.

I understand and agree with everything you are saying about the breeding of GSDs - that is very wrong too. There are hundreds of unscrupulous pedigree breeders out there as well and I am just as scathing. My 'favourite' rescue has more ex breeder dogs in kennels than any other. It's disgusting and something needs to be done about it. But whilst there is still a market nothing will be done. The market needs to close first.

Anyone who thinks that 6 generations produces a certain look and characteristics should make a small investment in breeding racehorses and within 6 generations they will be a billionaire.

Why are animals being bred to work better than animals being bred to not shed as much and be lovely pets?

All breeders charge money. My Labrador certainly wasn't free! He was cheap for a lab as he isn't papered, but papered labradors I see are about the same price as some of the doodles.

One's bred to hunt and the other to be a loved pet. Why is one better?

Problem with that Cheerful is that no poodle cross breeder can guarantee 'not to shed as much'. If you want a dog that doesn't shed, go for a poodle. If you want a dog that 'possibly doesn't shed quite as much' go for a poodle crossbreed. But to get there you need about 3rd Generation - even going on lowest average litters that means 42 dogs bred. 42 dogs rather than the lowest average of 5 in a poodle litter. For me that's a no-brainer whilst in UK 32 dogs are killed by the RSPCA alone every single day.

Why are animals being bred to work better than animals being bred to not shed as much and be lovely pets?

We already have breeds that don't shed and make lovely pets. You're taking the desirable trait of non shedding, and actually weakening it by crossing with a shedding dog. Creating many dogs with the undesirable trait in the process, which are ending up unwanted as people are buying into the poodle cross = hypoallergenic coat, then finding they're as allergic as they would be to the non poodle.

See also, manx cats. You get one kitten with the desirable trait (tailless), while many others, if they're lucky, are afflicted with a tail and are worthless, the unlucky ones have the lethal version of the gene and die. How is that responsible breeding?

Just buy a poodle, or a yorkie, or whatever breed that doesn't shed.

Rooner you're right, I've also met some gorgeous, calm poodles - but I've met enough nervous, nippy ones to put me off. That may be down to the owners rather than the breed though.

LtEve surely your comment about waste applies equally to breeders of purebreds who are breeding to obtain very specific "desirable" physical characteristics for show dogs. A PP described this as being "for the benefit of the breed" - seems to me it's actually for the benefit of the owners who want to use their dogs to win prizes, and there are plenty of imperfect byproducts along the way. Why single out breeders of cross breeds?

"there are plenty of imperfect byproducts along the way."

Not really, if they're not breeding consistently to type, they're doing something hugely wrong.

There shouldn't be any real difference in the quality of puppies between the ones they keep and the ones they don't.

You might get the odd one with something a bit random and unexpected (long hair from a distant ancestor in a short coated breed for instance) but they should know the lines well enough that it is completely out of the blue and really rare.

If they're frequently getting puppies that aren't to type they're not picking their breeding stock carefully enough...which takes you back to not being great breeders.

For working dogs it's slightly different in that it is a bit less predictable, but again whole litters should be capable of doing what they're bred for to at least a decent level given the right training, though of course some will be better than that.

Oh well done anti-poodle cross posters - another person who doesn't feel they can post on here this thread Marvelous.

I also feel like the elephant in the room here is that some people don't like how poodles look. Yes labradoodles can look poodly, but not as much so. It isn't a crime to select a dog on looks as well.

dallas good post but I think you are missing the point. ALL breeders are in it for money. Doodle breeders are no worse in this respect and the good ones are trying very hard to create healthy dogs.

No I don't agree Rooners. Remember, I hold all breeders in contempt. However, I have more tolerance for breeders who are breeding for reasons other than cash:

1. The breeders of 'show' dogs. Those that have a true love of the purity of their breed, intend their dogs to win acolades for their look/ability, those that treat their dogs like film stars (although I do detest the KC and associated failings, I can imagine why some people are crazy over their dogs )

1. The breeders of working dogs that breed for their specific task, whether that is rounding up sheep, retrieving game, pinning, guarding security installations, seeking out bombs/people/drugs/bodies.

1. The breeders of assistance dogs, whatever their speciality.

1. The breeders of dying breeds (otterhounds, corgis, bloodhounds etc)

They all make money, but money isn't the primary reason. Crossbreeding doesn't have that 'other' reason because nothing 'extra' comes from crossbreeds that can't be found in their original form.

Crossbreeds used to be the result of accidental matings, and they were generally 'free to a good home' or costs only. My first dog as a child was the result of an accidental mating between two farm dogs, a collie and a cocker. My dad went to the farm for some eggs and came back with a mutt!

The original Labradoodle was a good idea that didn't actually work out but it resulted in a boom of cross breeding. Even that chap didn't charge for the first few generations of dogs he created before he gave up. Nowadays a crossbreed costs more than the pure bred!

Doodles I don't see anything wrong with the thread you have posted?

And for what it's worth, I think poodles are lovely dogs and I like the look of them. I don't particularly like the weird and wonderful show clips, but an unclipped shaggy poodle is gorgeous.