New Puppy Mummies, Part 3

[DharmaLovesDraco]

New thread, because quite frankly I can't do without you all :)

I've taken to carrying treats round with me so I can reward Finn every time he comes when called but the little bugger has worked this out and follows me round with an expectant look on his foxy face and sitting every time I pause. Do I treat him when he sits even though I haven't asked him to? He's really good on sitting anyway but his little face looks so pleased with himself.
I knew it was a mistake getting a dog who is brighter than me!

I was wondering if you give a treat when they sit if their own accord too. Roxie would be having too many then though so I'm sticking to rewarding her for a command.

Didn't hear a peep out of her all night she is so good
Can't wait til she's allowed out for walks.

Once they've got the hand of sitting and are throwing the behaviour at you at random times, you can start choosing the criteria you want to improve and reward that. So for example, you could withhold the treat for a few seconds to increase the duration of the sit or only reward the fastest sits or the squarest ones, depending on what you want. Don't reward every single time and sometimes give a massive reward 'jackpot' instead of their usual tidbit.

Intermittent reinforcement is actually more powerful than rewarding every single time - it works on the same basis as one-arm bandits - the allure that keeps people coming back is the slim chance of hitting the jackpot and getting a huge reward. If they always paid out a small amount each time you played, you'd soon lose interest.

It's important to make sure that you are only doing this once you're certain they are completely understanding what the cue means. Basically you start by rewarding the action, then add a cue while they're doing the action and reward for the action itself, then start saying the cue before they do the action - all of which get a reward every time. Then once the behaviour is established and the dog definitely understands what's expected of him/her you can move to an intermittent reward schedule.

Intermittent Reinforcement.

NCISaddict, is Finn a border collie? So is Meg. She is cleverer than me too. I have been rewarding her for dropping things she should not have. Now she comes prancing up with her jaws full of thing she has picked up, spits them out, cashes in, and rushes off for another lot. She also knows she gets cheese for perfect whistle recalls. Now she has started pretending I whistled. She comes belting to me and sits down waiting whenever she fancies a snack.

ANgus is a complete pain with the jumping up and biting - dd has a long scratch on her foot (not sure if it was teeth or claws). He is not too bad with dh or me as we just say "no" quite loudly and firmly and he tends to stop - not so with the dc.
He also loves treats - and will "sit" as soon as he sees the bag (and barks if he doesn't get them..)
Re feeding - ANgus is on raw too - chicken mince in the morning and tripe mince with veg at night. I have been looking at the Natural Instinct complete meals though as I am not sure I am really cut out to feed a "Real" raw diet long term - but have no idea how to move to dry so reckon a complete raw food may be best move..

Yes Finn is a border collie, I am resigned to having a DS who is cleverer than me, now I have a bloody dog who out wits me.

He picks things up so quickly, I really want to get the recall sorted as I want to be able to walk him off lead. ATM if something spooks him he'll head back for the car which isn't an option so he's on lead for now.

Thanks for the tip on intermittent rewards moose, I was getting confused about how much treating I should be doing too.

I'm very interested in the raw diet Ladyturmoil, although the thought of handling lots of raw meat is rather off putting:D

I finally went to the vet re the behaviour this morning, I brought it forward from next week as the whole thing is stressing me out and I am aware that every day that goes by he is getting older.

So all very confusing. Arrived at the vets & Legend showed all the classic stress signs, panting, jumping up at me, not settling. He then kept gagging and started vomiting on the floor:( Got called in and he barked and growled at her when she tried to touch him, so at least she saw the problem first hand. She also could not get him to do any of his basic commands (sit, lie) and so I showed her how I did it & he obeyed me. She gave him treats, finally he relaxed, even wagged his tail. then later he barked at her again. Anyway the long and short of it was this: she has referred me to a behaviourist (but not the one I asked to be referred to) so don't know the qualifications of this one. She said the problem should be fixable because of his age. she suggested he is treating the kids as littermates & they need to be giving him more commands as well. She said I am not assertive enough with him myself (possibly true, although legend has never growled at me and I am the only one in the family he actually obeys), she said he was a very independent pup, whereas he should want to please more. she said GR's were not good first dogs and not good family dogs (bit surprised about this part).
As an aside, he is currently on anti-biotics, possibly for colitis. She said this should not affect his behaviour.
So I have rung the behaviourist for a quote and to see if it can be covered on our insurance & am waiting for her to call me back.
I really hope this gets sorted, as I run groups in my house with the house full of other peoples kids. Infact I had one such group last week & Legend barked at everyone and was very intimidating to some of the children. I had to shut him away in the end. I now feel like I cannot ask anyone over.
I love my dog & he adores me, so I hope he can learn to love other people too.

Oh yes the vet also said he didn't seem happy in himself & she thought it was because he was confused about his position in the household or something. I thought all that stuff was nonsense? I'm so confused now about what I'm supposed to be doing.
In fact she was very negative overall, she even said he was too small for his age, not underweight but small looking.
It's ridiculous, but I feel a bit insulted. It's like someone critising your child!

It does sound like your vet subscribes to pack/dominance theory picnic. Sadly not all vets take the trouble to keep up to date with current research.

Hopefully the behaviourist will be more informed. If they do start up with stuff about dominance and pack structure - run a mile. Whilst their methods might temporarily mask the problem, they would be setting up a potential time-bomb as the do will just be controlling the same fears and compulsions and in all likelihood would end up reacting very badly. Why wouldn't they refer you to an APBC member?

I don't agree with the dcs giving him commands while he is behaving like this. In fact I don't think young children should be trying to control dogs - all the advice given to children is that if you need a dog to do something, eg get off the sofa or move out of the way - ask an adult. Getting kids to tell him what to do is asking for trouble, imho.

I don't allow my dcs to command my dogs until they are fully trained and reliable and then not until they have each spent time with me learning how to do it properly. Even then it's just things like, 'sit' and 'wait' before they throw a toy and 'gentle' when taking a treat and only ever under my supervision.

As for you being assertive, if she was up to date on modern training methods, she would understand that it's consistency that matters - assertiveness is essentially just pitting your resolve against theirs and nine times out of ten that is just setting you up for failure. Modern training motivates them to want to do the things we need/want them to do and they learn this is the best way to behave by constant and consistent positive reinforcement.

To be honest, she is not qualified to comment on breed or behaviour - she is a medical doctor for dogs - in most cases, but not all, the equivalent to a GP and certainly not a specialist in canine behaviour - hence the need to refer.

I would have thought the not being happy in himself is quite possibly down to the digestive problems. Did she not consider that?

Sorry it was such a horrible consultation. Fingers crossed the behaviourist will know their stuff and soon have you and Legend on the right track.

Hello Everyone,
sorry to read that Picnic I can't advice as am new to this myself but I really hope the behaviourist can help you in this.

Today, we introduced Belle to my friend's dog, she has met a few other dogs whilst we have been out walking but never met a dog actually in her home, but my friend's dog is a lovely softie so we thought it would be good meet, but unfortunately my over protective mil decided to make a surprise visit and flapped like a bird at the two dogs, over exciting the puppy making them both run round like idiots, so it turned out to be very stressful!

Will try again at the weekend!

jammydodger Belle sounds lovely, but I can't see how to view her on your profile. What breed is she?

Thanks Moose, I knew you'd make me feel calmer:) The reason she didn't want to refer me to the APBC member was because they write a massive file on the dog & give the owner too much stuff to do..........she said the giant file is why they cost so much.
Anyway the other lady didn't phone me back and I have been on her website and cannot find anything about her even being a properly qualified behaviourist. Nothing is straight forward is it?!

On the plus side I did some lead training with Legend and he was amazing:)

Picnic, go to a different vet for a second opinion and referral to a suitably qualified behaviourist. If vets aren't right for us or our pet, we are perfectly entitled to vote with our feet and seek out one that is. It's well worth changing vets if you aren't comfortable with the one you have, as you need to be able to trust their judgement and feel able to be open and honest with them - not to mention you're going to be spending a lot of money with them over the lifetime of your pet.

They provide a service to us - we pay for it, it isn't their place to judge or possibly feed clients to a behaviourist that could just be a personal friend, rather than the best person for the job.

If I spoke to my vet and requested specific referral she'd do it. She may talk to me first about what my other options were, but she'd never over-rule me.

APBC members are covered by most insurance companies (check your policy first to see if they do cover behaviour). I have a friend who is a behaviourist and she also writes up a report on the dog and supplies a plan of action, then provides additional back up to the owners. They can't give the owner too much to do, they only advise people to do what the dog needs. If the owner isn't able to commit to that, then that's a different matter.

There are an awful lot of people out there calling themselves behaviourists who simply aren't qualified and in actual fact are just dog trainers. That's why we need to make sure we go with someone who is both qualified and a member of a professional organisation.

Picnic - that sounds really unsupportive of your vet. Quite undermining as well. Really tough when you're obviously trying really hard to sort this out. Not your fault and not Legends. I'd agree with Moose, that it's entirely reasonable for you to ask for someone in particular for any numbers of reasons - she may have been recommended by someone you trust or you may be the sort of owner that wants a huge file and action plan - I know I would be!

Moose - how was Pip at training today? I thought of you and her when we were at our training class as we were near a very timid GSD who hid behind/under owners chair the whole class except for a couple of barks responding to minty being over boisterous. Hope Pip got on ok, especially after your difficult walks recently.

Thanks mint.

He did very well. Had definitely been set back by his recent experiences, but still managed to stay out in front and say hello to a couple of other pup. We had to swap puppies and do a vet check on each one today and he was a star - no problems with people whatsoever. He wasn't very keen on training today though, just wanted to watch the other pups, which is fine, as it's the main reason for us being there. He's been having a few goes at ignoring cues just recently though and I think the teens are looming as he's fast approaching 6 months now.

We had a different trainer today, as our usual lady is on holiday and she was lovely. I enjoyed today's lesson a lot more than I usually do and I think that was more down to her than anything. Apparently she runs the follow on class, so we're going to book onto that one as well, although it's a 6 week course with a test at the end, so I'm hoping they don't take it all too seriously.

Unfortunately I was savaged by a teeny border terrier pup who was overstimulated and in a playful, but very bitey mood. She's the youngest in the class, so still has a lot to learn and is very terriery. She drew blood on both of my arms (had to shake her off one arm because she wouldn't let go ) and I'm now sporting red bloody welts and puncture wounds complete with purple bruises. Made me appreciate having a lurcher!

Took him for a walk on his own on the way home and he was really good. Off-lead, lots of recall practice and we had the whole park to ourselves, for a change, which was lovely.

Off to bed now - I think I find puppy class days almost as exhausting as Pip does!

Training class for us tonight. I'm going to ask the trainers if they know of any totally enclosed area to practice off lead recall. He's very good in the house or in our garden even with the distraction of two other dogs but I don't want to risk it yet on the common as he still goes to hide if something scares him although those things are getting fewer.

Moose - that sounds awful. I would be mortified if minty drew blood on someone at class. Or even got bitey. Did the owner intervene? Sounds like it wasn't quick enough.

I agree about training day being tiring. Ours is 5-6pm then home for tea so I've decided that day is the really easy tea day, maybe pizzas or I'd pick up fish n chips if I had the energy to stop car and park!

Minty ha started growling at me when I go to lift him - which I don't often as he weighs 14kilo, but I have to lift him into the boot of the car and he growled at me after training class which freaked me out a bit. Any ideas how I can tackle that?

I hope your arm is better moose, can't believe that terrier!! yes I find training classes tiring too!!!

The 'behaviourist' called back. She is not an APBC member.....whats more I do believe she is a friend of the vet:( She listened to the problem & said we should have taken the puppy back in the first week. She said she said if he is that timid then it is not fair on the dog to remain with us but she said obviously she would need to see him.

I think we have to go down the proper route though with an APBC member. I will be discussing it with DH tonight and then I think youre right moose, we need a second opinion.

That's for listening guys and Im sorry to be hogging the thread at the mo with our problems.

This morning I went downstairs to find Fitz sitting bolt upright in his crate - unusual as he's usually still flat out when I get up. I opened the crate and instead of his usual silly wiggling and licking frenzy which is his morning greeting he asked to go straight out - did a poo which he'd obviously been holding in then suddenly started squealing in fright and ran back inside as if scary beasts were after him - he had a bit of poo stick to his bum which was obviously traumatic and terrifying I cleaned him up and he went straight back to bed and flopped down then two mins later jumped up and ran to the door - he went out and did a massive wee which he must have forgotten to do in the trauma of the poo incident ....

Puppy training class didn't go so well last night - we're going to two, one for dd and one for me and last night was the one where dd handles Fitz. The problem is she's started using different hand signals to me and he's getting a bit confused. He also kept wanting to come to me and l

Gah pressed post too soon

He kept looking to me for instruction/reassurance - I'm worried I'm going to end up undermining dd but as I spend most time with him and do most of the training I suppose that's inevitable ...

Hope your arm's better moose - makes me thankful to have a retriever!

Good luck with finding a good behaviourist picnic - grr at your vet not being more supportive

Mint, if he's only growling when you lift him, do you think he could possibly be in pain? Worth getting it checked out just in case if the growling is completely out of character.

I will have a think about the best way to approach it if not. Bit diffcult as you need to get him in the car and if he's objecting, time out isn't going to work and taking him back inside the house is going to reward it.

Re terrier last night. When I shouted "Ow!" the owner just said "Oh yes, do tell her off if she bites". Neither them or the trainer said anything about the blood dripping from my arm.

My arm blooming hurts today and it's right where it touches the laptop when I'm typing. It's has a lovely rainbow coloured bruise around it now. Found another one on the other arm at bedtime last night. Think the first one hurt so much that I didn't notice when she did the second.

Picnic, behaviourist sounds crap - hardly useful to tell you should have taken him back at this point. He's still young, nothing is set in stone and with the right behaviourist and consistency and commitment a lot can change. Hope your dh agrees to going for a second opinion - and don't worry, you are not hogging the thread. We're all here to support you.

Basildon, Pip has had a poo panic like that too. Daft dogs! He also managed to squirt diarrhoea all over his back legs in the middle of the park the other day - that was fun!

At our club they say if you have started using different hand signals, just stick with those rather than confuse the dog. I use a different signal for just about every exercise. Can you possibly attend the same class and take turns instead?

Picnic - what a thing to say to new puppy owners! Especially as your reason for speaking to her was to get help, you're obviously committed to attempting to sort this problem out and help your puppy, not just dump him back at the breeders. You'd think a behaviourist would support and encourage that. Don't worry about the thread, I've felt that at times too about our problems but it's just about us helping each other.

BB- there are 3 of us at our puppy class, me and DS1& DS2 and we've worked out that we have time for two of us to practise each exercise in the time given so we take it in turns, usually I do the command first (minty is near perfect in his response to me, because I do my homework ), then one DS tries and often gets help from the trainer which is great as they'll listen to someone else better than me. Could you try the sharing commands at each class? Also minty was looking to me when DS was trying a command and she told me to turn away and ignore DS and puppy!

Moose - I don't think he's hurt or in pain when I lift him. He's been doing it for a while but I just tried to ignore it and changed the way I lifted him. So when he was little I used to lift him quickly in a matter of fact way. Then he got bigger and by 10 weeks he started to turn his head back to me and give a little growl when I lifted him. So I started going really gently first putting one arm under front legs telling him he was being a good boy, then when I felt he was happy with that I placed second hand under back legs and lifted, still happened quickly but not taking him by surprise. I thought that stopped the growling but he started again and the car incident was a real snap of head back to me sharp growl. So I put him in footwell instead as I felt a bit scared to attempt a second lift. Of course I could get a ramp for the boot but I'm reluctant to because we are running out of money with this puppy! and I feel I should be able to lift him, that he should trust me. We have our dog trainer visit tomorrow so I will ask her though we have a dog grooming mobile van coming this afternoon and I'm going to be a bit embarrassed if the groomer asks me to lift minty onto the grooming bed or bath.

Mint, been thinking about the growling and if it's not pain, then I reckon the best thing would be for you to change his opinion of being lifted by making it something positive.

Basically, condition him into enjoying the feeling of you lifting him. So perhaps start by click-treat for you putting your arm under his front legs. Do loads of repetitions with something really tasty. Then do the same with just the back legs then (and you may need a helper to feed him the treats for this) try getting both arms in position and treat for a positive response - again tonnes of repetitions. The next thing would be to start to gather him up as if you are going to lift him, but don't actually lift him and treat that, then when you are sure he's ok with that, try just a tiny lift - perhaps just front paws off the ground and treat for that, then just back feet, then whole body but only just lifting him off the ground and make sure you do lots of repetitions so that he makes positive associations with all the feelings associated with being lifted. When you've done lots and lots of lifts, then try again getting him into the car - but - go back to step one and do each stage - going quickly through each one as he tolerates it - working up to actually lifting him in. When he is in the car give him a huge jackpot reward, then get him out of the car again and go back in the house.

If you do that a few times not only should he associate the physical sensation of being lifted with something positive, by not actually taking him out in the car it will desensitise any negative assocations he may have with being taken out in the car, which may be contributing to him not wanting to be lifted into it.

I do understand how horrible it is to be growled at by your puppy. My Wheaten girl was a demon for it as a pup, she even properly bit me once, when I was stupid enough to try and retrieve some stolen food from her while she was hiding under the table with it. Don't despair though, she turned out to be the best trained and most reliable dog I've ever had - she was just one helluva opinionated little madam as a pup.

Good to hear your wheaten girl turned out nice Moose, gives me hope!!

Mint, Legend hates being picked up too, that was one of the things he growled at the kids for in the early days. Obviously I put a stop to them picking him up pretty fast, however there are times when we do have to pick our pups up. I'm afraid I gave in on the whole putting him in the boot thing really early on & he happily goes in the car in a doggy harness:)

Moose, sometimes Legend is really stubborn, eg, getting out of the car after a walk (obviously he doesn't want to go home!), and I have to wait ages for him to get out. Today I half carried him out. Just wondered how you would tackle that? He also does it at nighttime and ignores us when we tell him to go to bed because he prefers to be by the fire! He does do it in the end, but very reluctantly. Any ideas?

Picnic. Toby doesn't like coming out if the car after a trip out, but he will for a treat. Maybe this is when you have to use treats to reinforce the right behaviour?

There's plenty of hope picnic. Try not to lose heart - I know how hard that is though.

Re getting out of the car. I'd probably do lots of in-out, in-out, in-outs with super-tasty treats, both at home and at walk locations. I'd also throw in a few suprise "Guess what? Were not going home, we're going for another short walk." type surprises, so that he doesn't always think getting out of the car equals end of fun, iyswim.

Similar process with getting him to go to his bed. Make his bed the more rewarding place by spending time in the day doing lots of "In your bed" exercises - tossing him something really tasty every time he goes in. If he won't go in at all, you can either lure then reward or use the clicker to shape the behaviour. You would shape it by first rewarding a paw in the bed, then two, then his head, then front half, then going all the way in, then staying for a second, then lying down etc and building it up. You need to make sure he associates "In your bed" with something more positive than 'end of fireside play', so again, it's conditioning him to associate going in his bed with something pleasant happening.

A bit like

The only thing I would say is, obviously I haven't seen him in action, so can't judge his motivation for the way he responds. It could be part of the bigger picture and it may be better for you to just lure and reward at this point, until you've seen a qualified behaviourist.