Absolutely no recall, or selective hearing

[permaquandry]

PermaPup (12 months) been pretty much a nightmare since first outing. Did training classes, responded quite well to recall. In an outside setting (somewhere safe) just continually ignored or ran off.

Decided to buy an extending lead and carried on with the training (call, then treat etc).

Have been taking PP to an enclosed space far away from roads using a ball to chase and treats. All fairly successful but have still been very cautious as 1 time out of 5 will just ignore and run off.

Today doing more training, PP looked at me, ignored my calls, ran into woods. Cue me chasing, calling, cajoling, luring with treats, turning in other direction. PP carried on running around/running off and ran so far that we came across the edge of a dual carriageway! I let out a guttural noise through sheer panic, PP actually stopped and I managed to grab and put lead back on (thank god).

I lost most of my possessions in the chase had to search through wood to recover them (got them in the end).

What can I do, is PP destined for a life on-lead only?

Omg! That is almost exactly what happened to me on Mondays walk! Complete disaster, he just ran like the wind chasing a bird across the road which thankfully was quiet (for a change)absolutely nothing was working in getting him back, only when the bird flew out of sight did he stop the chase and stand still long enough for me to get the bastard. Tried again tonight and he was playing with my son who was running, I called the puppy and he completely ignored me. He's 9 months old. I feel your pain, as its so frustrating when you try to put the training in with recall. Lets hope things get better with practice (confused).

Retractable leads are the work of the devil. IMHO.

Has anyone at your training class discussed longlining with you? (Can't find the page I was looking for but this is an ok summary). Using a long line is different to using a retractable lead, they don't aid you in teaching recall or help in working on attention.
Do you clicker train generally or are you using your voice?
What work are you doing at home on paying attention?

Poor recall is often not a stand alone attention/obedience problem but other things are often smaller and seem of no particular consequence or aren't noticed whereas recall can cause huge issues with safety as well as being a major aspect of walks so is treated as A Big Thing that has to be tackled as an entity in it's own right, this is the hard road to recall. And your proofing is amongst other dogs, freedom to hare about, squeaky children, rabbits and a million other things much more rewarding to a dog that doesn't find one that interesting.
There are various different things I do but they are dependant on the questions above, breed, temperament and what pup is generally like so I'll cut the novel short there .

Whistle training may be the way to go.

I feel your pain, OP. One of our dogs ran off, stuck up the proverbial fingers and legged it. I went through any number of behaviourists and trainers, and through sheer fortitute found Sarah Jenkins. www.mayfieldsfarm.co.uk/ I can now say that Horror Dog is a completely different animal, part of the family, not perfect, but his behaviour relies very much on us and how we respond to him. Sometimes I feel the need to take a step back and bring him back to me, meaning business. You can get there!

Actually, she's pretty rubbish at any kind of command, she is still nipping as well, in a friendly, playful way by she does it whenever
anyone tries to stroke her, she jumps up and nips as well. She goes ballastic when the doorbell rings and still chews everything in sight.

Have I got big problems? I can't really afford a trainer at the moment. I'm reading the 'Dog Listener' by Jan Fennel.

Do I need to go back to square one and stop being lazy and soft start the training all over again?

Speak to Sarah! Yes you have to start again and have a shift in attitude. Dog training is mostly about people training. Victoria Stillwell who used to be on tv is good. Sarah starts with the physical handling of a dog. I think we keep happy dogs. She works with tension/release. I have to start again too. It's just about reining things in.

I used an expensive professional trainer. 6 months of long line just taught dog to come back if within that distance and to ignore me if further away. Whistle and reward was ignored. NOTHING worked because dog had no desire to please me or be with me. She improved once grown up but still largely ignores me. I can let her off lead only in safe places and because I know her well.

This is what changed with our Horror Dog when we met Sarah. She changed him through handling techniques. A line was suggested by another behaviourist. I asked and I asked and I asked. Horror dog had no interest to please or be with me either. These days he comes back and I need to do a bit of work with him so he's better.

The next best thing to a trainer ( as you've said you can't afford one) is Kikopup.
A fantastic trainer who has uploaded a large series of training videos on YouTube. Recommended by many on mumsnet.
Do you clicker train? If not, then it would be a great restart option for you.
I definitely wouldn't let permapup off lead until you have a solid set of new commands, but a longline and harness (for safety) will allow some freedom while maintaining your sanity.
If she ignores you, reel her in (to exactly the spot you called her from, don't let her off by going towards her) then lavishly praise and treat her. Use something extra special and ONLY use it for recall.
This does have its downside however. My choice of treat is fresh cooked liver. Pup will do anything for it. So, it seems, will most of the dogs in our park. I am regularly surrounded by pleading eyes

It's horses for courses! We've experienced different trainers as we jog along with each dog. We don't use food and it all starts before we leave the house. I don't want to ariticulate more as I have been shown what to do, and it could be misinterpreted. But it starts at home. It starts with you and the dogl and I think it starts with you taking the decisions in ways that can be understood by a dog.

I wouldn't recommend Jan Fennel as she uses VERY outdated rank reduction techniques. You are better off finding a decent science based trainer through the APDT or Pet Professional Guild.

Total Recall by Pippa Mattinson is excellent for teaching a reliable recall to whistle, in easy to follow stages.

Basically you need to make returning to you far more interesting than anything else your dog might be come across - nice idea, but probably not realistic 100% of the time. Therefore you need to condition his/her response to your recall cue or whistle so that he/she obeys it without even thinking. That's what the programme in the book does.

I would also recommend teaching an instant down to a dog who's a bolter, as then if you can't catch up with them, you can at least stop them running into danger.

I agree with Lilcamper, Jan Fennel is outdated and her theories re rank/dominance have been scientifically disproven.