Can anyone explain how crating dogs isn't cruel?

[DalaHorse]

I am not trying to be controversial. I am genuinely shocked by the crating "trend". I am aware that lots of people do this. But I cannot understand how locking the dog in a crate is at all fair or beneficial to the dog. I can however see how locking the dog in a crate is very beneficial to the owner. Is there any justification in terms of it being beneficial to dogs that I really can't see?

Booboostoo I get everything about the crates you say. The only thing I don't get is locking a dog in a crate. That turns it from a safe space into a prison. I just can't equalise with that. A unlocked crate is a safe dog-bed with a roof. Totally fine with that. A locked crate is a cage.

All these points you make "crates... brilliant for moving house, taking with you on holiday, providing extra reassurance during stressful times, etc. as well as keeping new dogs separate from your other dogs when not supervised, allowing everyone to eat in peace, saving your house from being chewed, giving the dog a chance to escape unwanted attention from children".... are fantastic benefits if the dog is free to leave the cage at any time.

I take puppies out of the equation here because puppies have different needs and we have discussed the safety elements of a crate for a puppy who is vulnerable. There may be times where a puppy is safer in a crate on a very short term temporary basis. I accept that. But grown dogs.... I don't get locking them into a cage. I don't and never will and I haven't heard anything here about locking a dog in a cage that is necessary and beneficial to the dog. Giving the dog the option to stay in their open doored crate is different to shutting the door after it.

Dogs aren't free to do/go wherever they want though - I'm not seeing the huge distinction between shutting the door of a crate and shutting the door of a room. Sometimes dogs are even tied up and paraded around on a rope!

Obviously, shutting a dog in a cage for hours so you can work or go out for the day is a bad thing. Shutting a dog in a cage overnight, or while you eat, or while you kids have a friend over isn't.

The distinction (in my eyes) is that leaving a dog in a room is recognising (and respecting) the fact the dog has a right to walk around, if it wants to, whereas a crate takes that right away.

I don't consider that dogs have a fundamental right to walk about whenever they want tbh. Staying in your bed all night isn't cruelty as I understand it (for dogs or toddlers).

You don't think a dog has a fundamental right to walk about?

We are not talking about walking wherever they want - some areas will be off limits and that's fine - but dogs should not be seen as such a nuisance on a regular basis that they are denied the right to walk whenever the owner deems it necessary, even denied the space to take a few steps -

Seriously that is bad.

How new is crating though? It's certainly not a trend. I'm well into my 30s and my parents have a dog crate in the background of some of my baby photos.

I'm well into my 40s Honey and the first I knew of someone having a dog crate in a domestic environment was in 2007. I have been around a lot of dogs and dog owners too. maybe your parents were ahead of the times.

My rescue dog had massive anxiety issues.

Apart from absolutely trashing my whole house she almost killed herself several times. Once having to be operated on to remove a huge length of fabric that had twisted around her bowels.

Also one memorable time she ate a razor blade.

Shutting doors made no difference because she would literally throw herself against the door until either the door gave way or she hurt herself too much to continue.

As soon as I took the vet's advice and bought her a crate she was a different dog. She took to it from day one, I didn't "crate train" her at all. She would walk in to it and curl up to happily then stay perfectly calm until I got back.

You can disapprove as much as you want to. My dog is safe and happy. If it wasn't for the crate I honestly doubt she would still be alive.

You look after your dog and I'll look after mine.

Well I had a crate with the lab I got in 2001, for the usual reasons. Transport, and safety whilst she was a Puppy. Particularly as she came to work with me.

It was used for a year I think.

Current dog still has a pen (no roof) in the kitchen. She chills in her corner of the kitchen with a big meaty bone when we have guests, as she is still learning to meet and greet.

I've read stuff from PETA and other anti craters before.

I can't speak for everyone but my own opinion of crates is that they are too easy to abuse.

But the pro craters don't abuse them, they use them positively. The people who lock them up in a crate unnecessarily would lock the up somewhere else.

I favour any methods with a dog as long as they are positive and done with the happiness wellbeing and safety of the dog as paramount.

I favour any methods with a dog as long as they are positive and done with the happiness wellbeing and safety of the dog as paramount.

Sums it up perfectly

Randall do you know, I was enjoying reading your post and thinking how sensible you sounded, until the last two sentences. Not that you should care. just thought you should know.

Honey think you hit the nail on the head - crates are too easy to abuse. That's my fear. I just hate the thought of miserable animals that are trapped in such a confined space for hours and hours. It really makes me sad. But like you say, those who lock them up a crate unnecessarily would probably lock them up somewhere else too. It depends on the dog owner. Like the poster's neighbour upthread who was asked to pop in to the dog left in a crate all day - it had no water. It might not have had access to water even if it wasn't in a crate.

and Randall, you took professional advice on a method to help rescue dog with existing behavioural issues. That is commendable and you have judged the results to have helped your dog which is great. There is a world of difference betweeny you and someone who shoves a dog in a crate with no water all day. It's a shame as a loving dog owner you can't note there's a difference and are snotty with me who quite clearly cares deeply about dogs.

Lacing a dog without water is a completely separate issue and nothing to do with crates.

I've read the whole thread and all they way through you have generalised about crate using owners being lazy and cruel. You ignored everyone who gave you good reasons as to why they use them. Don't try and back track now.

I find the things you've said deeply offensive and attempting to patronise me isn't helping.

Thinking about this more. If they were that unusual pre 2007 wouldn't I have had to search for one?

As opposed to walking into my nearest pet shop and choosing one from the selection they had.

I'd say crating has always been used. Particularly in working animal communities.

But the advent of the Internet has been good for dog lovers. Advice is exchanged. Methods a novice dog owner would never learn are shared.

People don't fret about healthy happy horses been put in stables at nigh or when they are vulnerable.

They do if they are locked permanently with no water or clean bedding.

It's the same for ALL animals.

Its not a case that dogs shouldn't have crates.

It's that some PEOPLE shouldn't have dogs.

Yes, I dont believe a dog has a fundamental right to walk around whenever they want. Sometimes they have to stay in their bed.

I don't think anyone has argued for leaving dogs in crates for hours without water or while the owner is at work, have they? Crates might be open to abuse, but they are not cruel in themselves. They're just a tool, that can be used well or badly.

Honey I didn't say they were unusual pre 2007! I said, they was the first I was aware of them. By then they were common. I doubt they were common in 1980 though.

People are obviously free to do what they want to do re crates. I personally still can't see that they are truly necessary for the benefit of the dog unless in the case of a disturbed dog who clearly feels safer in one at times, or a puppy who is in danger of injuring itself.

Randall you seem to be spoiling for a fight, so I won't respond to anything more you say.

I'm hugely offended by what you've said and even more so by how dismissive you've been of everyone who has give you their reasons for using crates.

I simply telling you so.

If you want to call that "spoiling for a fight" feel free. I call it disagreeing.

If anyone else thinks I've been hugely offensive, please report the specific posts.

You asked if people could explain how crating dogs isn't cruel. A perfectly legitimate question if a crate is not something you've ever used and if using them is not something you understand.

Plenty of people answered you, but instead of listening and taking in their reasoning you dismissed their posts and maintained that crates are a lazy and cruel option.

I take huge exception to being told I am a lazy and selfish dog owner.

Cruel and selfish dog owners are cruel and selfish, that has nothing to do with whether they use crates or not. The two things are not connected.

All dogs are different as are all people, the vast majority of dog owners are just doing what is best for them and their dog. Making sweeping generalisations is not helpful and yes, it is offensive.

Well, I'm a vet and got my first dog cage in 1995, after my pup chewed through the telephone wires and nearly gave himself a nasty obstruction. Before then I was worried it was "cruel" but he took to it like a duck to water and became far less anxious as a result. Later on we got rid of the cages, and he wasn't impressed!

I have seen dogs injured and ill in numerous ways that would have been prevented by using the cage, especially overnight. Of course owners watch their puppies pretty much all the time, just like parents do toddlers, but for that 5 minutes when you answer the door/ nip to the loo they are as invaluable as the playpen was for my toddlers. Can't understand why you can't see the similarilities in that comparison, tbh. Awake toddler requires constant supervision or playpen if supervision not possible. Awake puppy the same. Sleeping toddler in cot = sleeping puppy in crate.

My aunt had a real problem with her dog with fireworks. He was so distressed trying to get into small spaces (eg under the tv/ sofa) that he was at real risk of hurting himself, and she tried everything. I suggested dusting off his puppy crate, and he settled immediately, after months of sedatives/ behaviour therapy/ you name it. Just reinforced to me that dogs in distress seek a safe sanctuary- their cage. Any time my own dogs were upset or unwell they headed straight for the cage.

Yes they can be abused, but most people who go to the bother and expense of buying a crate have researched and are responsible. People do far worse things to dogs, believe me A lot of chewing puppies seem to end up on the street or on effin Gumtree, where they get through 3 or more feckless owners in their first year. IMO, the clients who come in with a new puppy who have a crate and have researched it are also the ones who have researched having a pup, and are far more likely to be responsible owners than the eejits who bought a pup because it was cute, but come in complaining to me that it "pees everywhere!" at 10 wks old and chews all their stuff. Most people who crate their dogs while they pop out are acutely aware that their dog is in the crate and only leave it for short periods. Others seem to think because it's "got the run of the house" it will be happy on its own for 8 hours a day. It's really not as black and white as you would like to paint it.

Nope.. still can't see any hugely offensive posts from myself. I can however see my own opinion which, the last time I checked, I was entitled to have.

Still can't see how saying : "Perhaps for some people, crates are a lazy option and they would rather put the puppy in the crate than spend time puppy-proofing" is telling crate owners they are all lazy and selfish.

Still can't see how "I take puppies out of the equation here because puppies have different needs and we have discussed the safety elements of a crate for a puppy who is vulnerable. There may be times where a puppy is safer in a crate on a very short term temporary basis. I accept that". is not listening and taking in reasoning.

Still can't see how "you took professional advice on a method to help rescue dog with existing behavioural issues. That is commendable and you have judged the results to have helped your dog which is great." is telling someone they are a lazy and selfish dog owner and deeply offensive. I mean really? deeply offensive?

But like I said, anyone else who finds my posts deeply offensive please go ahead and report the relevant posts. I'm sure Mumsnet HQ will be pleased to delete anything inappropriate, as I would too, if it existed.

Yeah. As I said, being patronised isn't my thing.

I gave you my opinion which, as you said, I am entitled to have.

I'll leave you to it.

I think what people are taking offence at (although I personally don't find your posts offensive, just a little ignorant and anthropomorphic) is your idea that those of us who know and love dogs and have used crates/ cages for years are somehow just buying into a "new trend"! Just because you only became aware of crates a few years ago doesn't mean that vets/ breeders/ behaviouralists and other doggy people haven't been using them for years! And there are good reasons for that- being "lazy" ain't one of them!

ThePlatypus I'll cut and paste the bits you have somehow not read in my posts.

"I take puppies out of the equation here because puppies have different needs and we have discussed the safety elements of a crate for a puppy who is vulnerable. There may be times where a puppy is safer in a crate on a very short term temporary basis. I accept that"

(Crates are) "....truly necessary....in the case of a disturbed dog who clearly feels safer in one at times, or a puppy who is in danger of injuring itself."

...think you hit the nail on the head - crates are too easy to abuse. That's my fear. I just hate the thought of miserable animals that are trapped in such a confined space for hours and hours. It really makes me sad. But like you say, those who lock them up a crate unnecessarily would probably lock them up somewhere else too. It depends on the dog owner."

I think that pretty much agrees with 90% of the content of your post.

How is the above painting it as black and white?

I can't see anything offensive.

And I've read the entire thread and have yet to see a valid reason to crate that doesn't have alternatives that would be better for the dog.

You can dog proof a room allowing the dog to walk around if it wants to stretch its legs at night, when you're out or at work.

You can toilet train without a crate.

You can keep it calm without a crate.

You can stop destructive chewing without a crate.

You can give it a safe warm place to sleep without a crate.

If someone comes to the door you can shut it in a dog proofed room.

I still don't see any valid reason for using a crate for the benefit of the dog and not just the owner.

And I find it uncomfortable how defensive people get when the op doesn't agree with others. We all have a right to our own opinion, not everyone will agree with you so no need to get angry about it!