Can anyone explain how crating dogs isn't cruel?

[DalaHorse]

I am not trying to be controversial. I am genuinely shocked by the crating "trend". I am aware that lots of people do this. But I cannot understand how locking the dog in a crate is at all fair or beneficial to the dog. I can however see how locking the dog in a crate is very beneficial to the owner. Is there any justification in terms of it being beneficial to dogs that I really can't see?

[HoneyDragon]

I didn't quote you.

A crate, as has been explained is a mobile item. It is for transport and safeguarding. A majority of posters on this thread, including myself have explained our dogs travel. For that a crate is a necessity in many situations and often digs are not allowed to be transported without one.

I was referring to you saying why not call it a cage as that is what they are. For me it really is just semantics, whether its called a crate, cage, or a wankerooni, I will still use it. Especially if I resumed my previous job, and went travelling with my dog.

It's not an odd analogy. A fat overweight dog is an abused animal. Referring to them as abusec has no effect at all on oners who over feed dogs unsuitable foods. They simply refuse to believe they are abusing their animal. Like misuse of crating, slip leads and head harnesses, something being common place does not make it right.


My exasperation in that post was in direct response to your post about the difference between crate and cages.

Why would I be frustrated? My primary concern, has always been for the welfare of my dogs and always will be. The fact that I have repeatedly mentioned crates can be abused and often are abused, and I mentioned I have read the reports such as released by PETA, would show that I have a vested interest in the subject.


I am very sorry for any offence caused in answering the question that you asked if anyone knew the answer too. But that is all I was doing. Answering a question.

[HoneyDragon]

Explanation ....not exasperation.

Clearly a Freudian slip as a result of you misrepresenting my post.

[FrustratedSycamoresRocks]

dala I found that ridiculously small for the size of the dog crate.

It is truely shocking that some companies think this that this type of advertising of their products is acceptable. If crated, that size dog should be in one at least twice the size.

[HoneyDragon]

Having seen the major pet stores sell and advise on fish tanks I wouldn't trust them on the correct size cage, hutch, coop, tank, crate for ANY living creature.

[moosemama]

After reading Dala's post, I had to google and found that picture as well.

Shame really as the company concerned sell some fab dog beds, perfect for pointy hounds, but I'm not sure I'd give them my business after seeing that.

[moosemama]

... I was getting fretful because the tips of lurcherboy's ears poke through the top of his crate when he stands up - and we only use the crate for him to travel in. I am genuinely shocked that they think it's ok to suggest that crate is suitable for a dog of that size.

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

That is appalling - that is the size of cage we used for ddog1 when she was a little puppy - why would anyone think that is an appropriate cage for that dog??

[DalaHorse]

OK HD. I misrepresented you, no, you misrepresented me but you didn't, then there was a Freudian...Gosh I am getting all confused! Let's leave it there?

I have learnt quite a lot from this. My opinion of crates has definitely altered since I started the thread yesterday. I still don't think I would have one personally, but I have realised that lots of caring and responsible dog owners have them and are able to use them responsibly, for the good of the puppy or dog not for convenience to themselves.

What I am most pleased about is that there has been some good intelligent conversation about it, so someone who could have unwittingly been using crates wrongly, not cruelly but wrongly, thinks twice and maybe goes and finds out how to use them more appropriately, or realises their dog could have moved on from a crates and could easily graduate to a bed but they had overlooked it. Or even that their crate is too small. . I don't know. Maybe.

[tabulahrasa]

That's also the size I had my puppy in and swapped it for his huge one when he was about 4 and a half months old.

[DalaHorse]

Re the picture, that's not the one I saw, although it was a similar sort of thing.

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

A happy ending.

Btw - I never asked what sort of dogs you have, Dala. Ddog1 is a choc lab, and ddog2 is a black lab pointer cross (a rescue dog). Ddog1 was my first ever dog - I grew up with cats - but now I am hooked - I can't imagine a life without at least one dog in it.

We almost ended up,with a third dog - dh found a stray staffy in the village, who'd been hit by a car, and brought him home. We had to hand him to the SPCA because he needed vet care, but if his owners hadn't turned up, we would have asked to adopt him. He was lovely - a total gentleman, despite being lost, in pain, and in a totally strange house. And our dogs were nice with him too. But his owners had been looking for him all night, and when I rang the police with the dog's description, they connected that report up with the missing report and he went home that day.

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

It is frightening that there is more than one picture like this, presumably on more than one site.

[tabulahrasa]

That is the size I have, though not from there.

[D0oinMeCleanin]

Our crate is not big enough for whippy to stretch her front and back legs out in, but she never ever never sleeps like that. She likes to curl into a ball and squash into corners of things. We could fit at least 6 ball sized whippy's into her crate and she can stand, sit and turn comfortably.

She did used to have a much larger crate but she created a 'toilet corner' and it stunk, so we bought her a smaller crate and spent a week training her to hold it over night.

She currently has in her crate; a waterproof crate mat, a cushioned fleece crate mat, a nest with sides and a sleeping bag, which she likes to be tucked into at night (I wish I was making that last bit up but I am not) and for some reason she has a pepperami wrapper that she reclaims everytime I bin it. She keeps it next to her nest. We do have a water bowl that clips on the side, but unless the weather is really warm I take up all the dog's water dishes overnight to prevent toilet accidents, when the weather is warm they get water down at night.

[FrustratedSycamoresRocks]

dala it is shocking that there are more pics like it.

tab and sgtg it's the picture further down of the travel one, that retriever must have been blue-screened into, as there's no way he could have actually got into it stood up.

[FrustratedSycamoresRocks]

tab that's about the same size as ours.
Lab-dog looks about the same size as that retriever in it, in that he had about the same amount of room to move about.

[Booboostoo]

DalaHorse no I am not a dog trainer, but 17 years ago when I got my first dog as an adult my dog training club was looking for help so I took a 6 month trainer's course in clicker training. I then helped out at the club but always as an assistant to the trainer and only dealt with straight forward pet dogs (no aggression or difficult issues!!!). I enjoy reading up on the topic and attending lectures so I try to keep up although since coming to France this has been impossible because they are about 20 years behind the UK.

I've done a bit of everything with my dogs from obedience, to clicker fun to agility but nothing to any amazing level. I also have horses and have used the clicker to solve some problems I have come across with them.

I am glad the thread has been interesting for you. The photos of the crates mentioned are far to small for the dogs shown in them. Using a crate correctly is hardly brain surgery but having seen people fail to understand the behaviour-click-treat sequence after literally weeks of trying to show them, nothing surprises me!

[HoneyDragon]

This thread keeps challenging my ethics. I think of myself as a very moral, caring and law abiding person.

But

If the chance ever arises I am going to steal Whippy dog from Dooin and run away, and I won't feel one teeny tiny bit of remorse

[impty]

I thought a crate needs to be large enough for a dog to stand up and turn around in?
In my experience people who use crates have ones larger than needed. Obviously that's not everyone though

[Booboostoo]

impty yes that's my understanding too, but you don't want a crate that is too large either as the dog may use part of it as a toilet. With most breeds you would need more than one size crate, e.g. our old GSD had three different size crates from puppy to adult.

[D0oinMeCleanin]

@ Honey.

My Dad tried to actually, properly steal her once. He was convinced she was happier with him after he dog sat her for a week. It took us three days to convince him to return her. He eventually brought her back, but did admit that he just opened the car door and if she didn't get out of her own accord he was going to drive back home with her. Apparently she "shot of the car like shit off a stick" so he started to feel bad about trying to steal her

[tabulahrasa]

D0oin - my DS (he's 17) says the puppy has mastered dog diffusion, he goes from high concentration of dog standing up and spreads out into a larger volume less dense dog when he lies down, lol

I've had dogs that were considerably taller than him and could sleep in half the space he takes up, lol.

That's why the huge crate - he's not fully grown, it's looking like he'll be smaller than breed standard anyway and that's the next size up from what's reccomended for rotties, but I know he likes to sleep on his back with all his legs stretched out, so I got him one that he could do that in.

Lying neatly in a down position he doesn't even half fill it.

[DalaHorse]

SDT Our first dog was an elderly rescue collie-cross. Then we had a rescue labrador. They were both wonderful. We are waiting until the DCs are slightly older before getting a new dog, because we want the DCs to be old enough and aware enough to experience it all thoroughly, eg accompanying us to training sessions with the dog. We have a cat too. the cat wasn't very welcoming with the first dog. (spitting and hissing) so we made their introduction very gradual. We put a baby gate on the stairs initially so the cat could leg it upstairs away from the dog if ever it wanted. In time it wasn't needed - the dog and the cat each minded their own business but occasionally they laid down together in front of the fire together .

Maybe we were lucky, but both our dogs despite having very different personalities (sparky quick collie cross, and lumbering, sweet natured lab) we got them fitted in quite quickly. We showed them what we expected of them, they were told if they misbehaved, which was rare. They were allowed to move around the house freely, unless for example we had a visitor or a party that they might find noisy or perturbing in some way. Then we would move them upstairs away from the action until after the party was over/visitor had left.

The dogs' bed was under the desk. If it wasn't appropriate for them to be in the lounge or the kitchen on occasion for example, they were directed out of the room and that was that. At night they had run of the hallway and the study where their bed was. Occasionally we would hear them getting up for a drink of water and having a bit of a wander and a stretch of the legs but then flump down back in bed. They were happy.

This is all why I struggle to see the need for a crate for a dog who has clearly adjusted to the household. If they are well behaved and mentally adjusted why would I lock them in a crate at night as opposed to letting them have at least a hallway to stretch their legs in? Not to reopen any closed points. Just I didn't have any reason to. I would actually have felt... I don't know... slightly snidy, like I was only pretending to trust them but really they were not to be trusted. I can't explain it. but like they were so lovely and loyal to me, I would have felt guilty limiting their personal freedom if there was no real reason to.

[FrustratedSycamoresRocks]

D0oin I do believe you've just instructed honey on the best way to steal her. (Don't open the car door. )

[tabulahrasa]

Dala - I've had older rescue dogs, ranging from 6 months old to about 5 years old when I got them and didn't need to crate them.

This puppy has been a whole different ball game to previous dogs, partly because of having him from a tiny baby, partly just because he is some sort of puppy crossed with a tigger, lol and partly because he has a joint problem that limits exercise.

I think different dogs require different care and mine needs protecting from himself more than any amount of wandering while alone.

I don't trust him, not at all, not when it comes to deciding what is suitable for him to play with and what isn't.