Can anyone explain how crating dogs isn't cruel?

[DalaHorse]

I am not trying to be controversial. I am genuinely shocked by the crating "trend". I am aware that lots of people do this. But I cannot understand how locking the dog in a crate is at all fair or beneficial to the dog. I can however see how locking the dog in a crate is very beneficial to the owner. Is there any justification in terms of it being beneficial to dogs that I really can't see?

[DalaHorse]

AMENDMENT TO LAST POST. Sorry. When I said "numpties" I don't mean ALL future crate owners FGS. I mean specifically future crate owners that don't instantly look at that crate and think "that's too small" but those who look and think "well that dog in the picture is in it, so it "must" be the right size". ie just going by the picture not what is actually appropriate.

[fanoftheinvisibleman]

I think as has already been suggested, the fault lies with people and not crates.

I used one with my pup. He never complained about going in it but it was only used at night and mainly whilst i did school pick up.
I stopped shutting the door during the day at around 6 months when I felt confident he wasn't going to cause himself mischief. It is still up, mainly because I am using it to prevent him going into the hall way and we have no kitchen door. I intend to buy a gate but haven't got round to it. He does get in his crate by choice sometimes but the door is no longer closed.

I have witnessed crates being misused and puppies being placed in there regularly by owners who can't be arsed to deal with normal puppy behaviour but I had no qualms using one as I was confident I never abused it and stopped as soon as I felt puppy was sensible danger wise.

[moosemama]

impty, if you read Dala's post of 15:02:10, she does actually say that she thinks you have used your dog's crate is appropriate and not a problem at all.

[moosemama]

interrupted by a child halfway through that sentence. It should have read:

... she thinks the use of your dog's crate is appropriate and and not a problem at all.

[fanoftheinvisibleman]

And fwiw I agree about sizing. I got a 30" crate for my tiny BT pup which was way bigger than many of the suggested recomendations. He could even now, walk around in it though he is never shut in.

[impty]

dala and moosemama.....

I apologise I did miss that post.

climbs off high horse red faced

[HoneyDragon]

They are called crates as one of there primary functions is to be mobile.

Cage or crate. Semantics don't do it for me. Calling it a cage won't stop me using one. Especially on planes trains automobiles and boats.

Calling a fat dog abused doesn't stop people over feeding them shite.

[D0oinMeCleanin]

I use a crate on an issue free adult dog. I initially bought it to aide toilet training and keep her safe from our terrier when I was out at work.

She is locked in over night.

The reason she is locked in over night, is as I mentioned earlier, she will howl all night if she is not. I spent a lot of time working on crate training with her and she loves her crate, she was most upset when it moved to the yard one day and spent the entire day outside in her crate refusing to come inside, luckily it had only been moved to accommodate a craft party and was promptly moved back afterwards.

She does have a 'way out' of her crate if she wants. She is well aware that if she starts howling whilst locked in her crate, either myself, DH or one of the children will get up and let her out, depending upon who she wakes first. She will then either go to the backdoor indicating she needs the loo or stand at the dining room door indicating that something has spooked her and she wishes to sleep in a people bed, which is allowed. With all the high winds lately this has been happening a few times a week, she hates wind, however under normal weather conditions it happens rarely. She sleeps happily in her crate all night.

I don't think this is cruel.

[moosemama]

impty

[moosemama]

I think your situation is similar to impty's D0oin, in that you allow the dog to make her own choice about whether or not she wants to be in the crate - it's therefore, appropriate use and not a problem.

[DalaHorse]

impty, it has already been said by moosemama but to reiterate, I was complimenting you.... I said: "using them only as a last resort not a first resort, as in the case of impty, who let her dogs show her which they preferred and respected their individual choices, which I think was great". I think totally the opposite that you are being cruel! You did exactly the right thing in my eyes! Unfortunately you misread.

I think I've established that I have conceded during the course of this thread that puppies and certain dogs in certain situations can benefit from crates for their own safety or comfort.

However, I don't feel that crates are suitable for all dogs and all situations but because it's currently the trend, or a common thing to do, some people adopt it as their approach whether or not it is suitable. Not to mention the other element of dog owners who will shut the dog away for convenience. I don't feel anyone who's responded here is anything like that Can I make that clear. But I do think there's a "thoughtless" element of people, out there somewhere, who just "do" what they think is "the done thing" without any real thought or care or consideration for the dog. The sort that gets a crate automatically and doesn't bother reading up on how to use it properly, or tailoring its use to the dog. The sort that continues to lock the dog up whenever they feel it's an inconvenience to have a dog around.
BIG PRINT DISCLAIMER: I am fully fully 200% aware not all crate owners do this and that it's highly highly unlikely to be anyone who has contributed to this thread. I am just making the point that it doesn't have to be neglectful horrible dog-mistreaters who can unwittingly misuse the crates.

[DalaHorse]

impty x post

[MothershipG]

I think that one of the reasons crates/cages have become more common is that more of us have open plan homes. Previously the dog would have been shut in the kitchen but now very often the kitchen is open to the rest of the house. It is in my house and pretty much everyone else I know.

DDog1's crate only comes out now for fireworks as, like many other dogs on this thread, it's where she wants to be when she's worried.

Like most other items of dog kit, yes, crates/cages can be abused but that's a matter for education not blanket dismissal of them as a useful tool.

In general, I am disappointed at the lack of effort most owners seem to want to put into dog training, hardly any dogs in our local park have decent recall. Mine aren't perfect (especially DDog1) but I am very much alert to it and constantly working to improve it (I can get her back from pretty much anything but a squirrel now. ) But I don't think this is anything new?

[MothershipG]

But I don't think this is anything new?
I mean I don't think lack of training is anything new, not squirrel chasing, although that isn't anything new either!

[tabulahrasa]

The thing is though - the people who are sticking them in the crate because they're inconvenient are people who would have previously left them in the garden or stuck them in a utility room, it's not an inherent fault with crates, it's a fault in some people.

Like the size issue, anyone with half a brain and any consideration for their dog can take one look at a picture of a dog with too little room and judge for themselves that their dog needs to be able to move about a bit and stretch out.

Mine can stretch out on his back with front and back legs extended and still has room for my 13 yr old Dd next to him, lol.

[Booboostoo]

The crate should never be used as punishment. The sequence of events should not be that the dog chews and then the owner puts it in the crate to teach it not to chew because if it chews something unpleasant happens to it. Rather the crate is a very pleasant place which also happens to save the house from being chewed. You don't use the crate to punish problem behaviour, you use it to avoid problem behaviour (like any problem there are a limited ways of dealing with it; you either put up with it, or you avoid instances where it manifests, or you train incompatible behaviour).

'Time out' is an (appropriate in my mind) aversive technique but it should never be used with the crate. The dogs displays inappropraite behaviour, e.g. attacks another dog, and is taken in silence and placed in a neutral room (a room that is not often used by the dog like a bathroom) and left on his own for a few minutes. He is then released again in silence. It is important to use a neutral room for this and never the crate or outside.

[moosemama]

Can I ask a question about crate/cage size when it comes to using them in the car please?

There is no way we could fit a cage big enough for lurcherboy to walk around in in our car. We could in our VW camper, but we rarely use that.

We do use a cage/crate in the car for him. It's the one he had as a youngster when we first took him in and he loves it (see upthread about him wanting it back when we got it out for a post operative dog) but can really only just stand up, turn around and stretch in it now he's fully grown - if it was any taller we wouldn't be able to close the lid of the boot and we have a decent sized car/boot. The reason we use one in the car is because I too know of someone who was killed by their dog flying from the back and breaking their neck when they were in an accident. I also know of quite a few dogs that had to be pts due to injuries caused by being unsecured in a vehicle when there was an accident. I am also very aware that lurcherboy is a weighty lad and I have 3 dcs seated directly in front of him in the car - if he flew through the car in the event of an accident he would be more likely to kill or severely injure one of my dcs than me, as he would hit them first.

Prior to the dcs, all our dogs had harnesses for travelling and sat happily on the back seat watching the world go by.

What do other people do to fit both dcs and dogs in the car?

[tabulahrasa]

At the moment I can't fit DC and Dog in the car, he got too big...so I'm having to sell my car and get a bigger one, I'm thinking estate with dog guard and he can have the whole boot with a bed in it.

[Booboostoo]

moosemama I think you are entirely right to be worried about the danger an unsecured dog could pose to itself and the people in the car in case of an accident. Many car manufacturers do rigid boot dividers that fit specifically in their model cars to keep dogs in safely in the boot. Otherwise you will need to compromise with the crate that fits your car and short journeys.

[moosemama]

I hadn't thought of a boot divider Booboostoo, we used to have one of those for one of our old cars, many moons ago - I'd completely forgotten.

Think I will go and see if I can find a second hand one on ebay. Thank you.

We are changing our car soon anyway and will be having a VW type 4 camper van as dh's daily driver, so he can have a mahoosive crate in there.

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

Dala - anyone using a crate that the dog can't stand up, stretch out or move around in is far worse than a numpty and shouldn't be allowed to have a dog.

Ddog1 was in a cage as an adult sized dog, because she didn't stop chewing u til she was over a year old, but it was big enough for her to move around in.

[FrustratedSycamoresRocks]

sdtg my lab is adult sized, and was crated at night until recently too. His last crate went up in sizes as he grew was massive, size wise it was suitable for a much bigger dog like a St. Bernard.
Same as yours, lab-dog is a big chewer. He went in happily every night, he had his bed in there, and always had a treat and a bowl of water in with him. In the day the door was open and he could go in and out of it as he pleased.

I do think that crates can be misused, and this is where the problem arises. Like if the crate is too small for the dog, or used as a punishment, or to keep the dog in all day. But in the right circumstances and used the correct way, then there isn't a problem with one being used.


In the car lab-dog has a harness that clips into the seatbelt.

[moosemama]

Booboostoo, thank you for your suggestion. I have managed to track down a car specific guard and divider - although dh isn't impressed with the price - so that's my car travel problem sorted.

[DalaHorse]

SDT I know - I just typed "dog crate" in Google and one of the first images I saw of dogs crates for sale (by a reputable looking company too!) showed a dog half-lying in a crate that was clearly too small for it to stand, sit up or lie down in. I mean if a company who sells them think that's appropriate, and nobody, from the buyers to the photographer to the proof-readers for the company thought that cage was too small and looked wrong then it doesn't exactly lend confidence that would-be purchasers won't follow suit (especially as the smaller the cage, the cheaper).

I have seen other images since though that show a crate with a decent amount of space around the dogs, even bigger dogs like retrievers.

Booboostoo are you in the animal industry, out of interest? you sound very knowledgeable.

[DalaHorse]

HoneyDragon I pondered over whether or not to respond to your points, and then I thought why the heck not.

So: "They are called crates as one of there primary functions is to be mobile." This doesn't make sense? Since when are crates mobile and cages not?

"Calling it a cage won't stop me using one". I didn't suggest it should or would, did I? I am really quite tired of being mis-quoted.

"Calling a fat dog abused doesn't stop people over feeding them shite." Sorry I really don't get this. Abused fat dog being name called? An odd analogy, but each to their own.

The above is quite a comparison to some of the very good and informative discourse on this thread lately. You are coming across as somewhat frustrated that the thread has now moved on to a quite positive place and seem to want to bring it back to squabbling level, judging by your recent contribution as highlighted above...