Just put a deposit down for a puppy but having doubts

[gabsid]

Today we drove 3 1/2 hours to see cockapoo puppies. DC adored the 4 week old puppies and chose one.

However, the breeder told me that the cocker spaniel mum didn't have papers, nor a health check and I am not sure whether to go through with it.

Is there a cooling off period? Can I get the deposit back?

The interesting thing is that people don't feel the same way about pedigree cats and it's also very normal to cross one breed of horse often with another in fact technically there are only a handful of "pure" breeds of horses. Dairy cows in particular the ubiquous Holstein fresians are increasingly being outcrossed to other breeds to improve soundess confirmation and long levity.
But when it comes to dogs people seem to get very worked up about both mongrels and pedigrees.

Happygardening, I feel exactly the same about cats, horses, rabbit, guinea pigs, rats and even hamsters. I don't agree with the unethical breeding of any animal.

It's not about pedigree versus mongrel or crossbreeds, it's about the tens of thousands of animals being killed the fact that people breed with no regard for health testing or welfare and the fact that anyone who is breeding needs a bloody good reason to be doing so.

midori I'm not disputing your point there is a lot of crappy horses bred. The point I was trying to make obviously unsuccessfully that it seems to be only in dogs where pedigree/breed is considered quite so important.

In fact Arab horses generally accepted to be one of the few pure breeds are often unpopilar in the equestrian world but are frequently crossed with other breeds of all shapes and sizes because their potency and ability to improve. The foal from an Arab cross would frequently be more popular and even more expensive than the Arab horse parent!
I'm not a dog expert and have deliberately choosen to own pedigree dogs but the point I'm trying to make is that in other animals pedigree seems less important.

It's not a case of pedigree or non pedigree. It's a case of responsible breeding versus not. It just happens that you don't really find responsible breeders of non pedigree dogs.

It's not really comparible to the horse world where health testing doesn't exist and joe public (generally although this isn't do much the case nowadays!) just goes out and buys a horse on a whim.

OP, a phone call to Consumer Direct or your local Trading Standards will confirm your rights in this case.

midori1999 - exactly, I want a dog that comes from a breeder who loves their dogs, looks after them and their puppies. I don't really care about pedigree. I don't know about the history of today's pedigree dogs but assume they were mixed breed at some point, e.g. the labradoodle seems to be a breed now. Yesterday I saw a labradoodle calendar amongst all the pedigree dog calendars and there is a labradoodle association. Isn't it recognised as a breed now? And they have only been around for about 10 years or so.

Also, I don't believe that pedigree breeders just breed to further the breed. That sounds a bit too alturistic for me. Yes, I would expect them to further the breed, try to breed dogs with a lovely temperament people want as pets, consider the welfare of bitches and puppies, but most people do have to earn a living and if its a business I expect that they also want to make money.

For us, a cockapoo or very small labradoodle would be a great family pet for us and our 2 small DC (7 and 4). As far a I read about them they make are very good with DC, fun loving, sociable and very intelligent dogs, and we like the way they look and want a cream or chocolate puppy. And if a responsible breeder breeds such Xbreed dogs then, yes, I feel they can further that breed too.

Therefore, pedigree doesn't mean much to me. We just want a lovely addition to our family.

scuttlebutter - thanks again for your advice, but realistically how things stand now we can just hope for the best. The breeder has reluctantly agreed to return the deposit, however, she seemed (or pretended) to be oblivious about cheques and said she will post the cash, which may conveniently get lost in the post. We have now put our telephone conversation in writing, and we will enclose a prepaid recorded envelope and hope she will send the money.

MrsWolowitz - We are in Norfolk, it may be quite far, but yes I would be very interested. Do they have a website? How much contact have you had with them?

Labradoodles are not a breed, they don't have a type and they're not recognised as a breed.

Some pedigree breeders make money, responsible ones dont - not because of altruism, but because doing it right costs a lot of money. It's an expensive hobby, not a way of making a living.

If you can find a responsible breeder who is trying to establish them as a breed and is doing everything right to get the best puppies - fantastic.

I still however think it's very odd to get a poodle cross if you don't like poodles.

Doodles ( of any variety ) are not a recognised breed , except by people like you OP , who pay several hundred pounds for them so think that makes them different to any other mongrel that comes along . I have a calendar at home made up of pictures of my Terrier X , it's very appealing , it doesn't make him a recognised breed !

This thread is driving me potty.

Pedigree dog means it is a recognised breed with years and years of careful breeding behind it. Anything else is a cross breed or mongrel.

Just because there is a bollocky doodle calendar available does not make it a recognised breed.

And that goes for any dog with a made up cutsey sounding name; cockerpoo, labradoodle, springador, cavapoo. All the same.

Bred just to make money. Not to further the breed, because they aren't a breed; just a trend.

Please take on board that it isabsolutely impossible to predict the behaviour of a cross breed for the reasons I've outlined in previous posts.

Oh. And a small labradoodle is going to be a health time bomb. Can you imagine the strength and bulk of a labrador on a miniature poodle's frame? Asking for trouble IMO.

You are looking for a mongrel, in truth. And a very expensive one at that. An odd decision, IMO.

Tabulahrasa I was just about to say that. My friend sometimes breeds his (very large and very gorgeous) mountain dog. Although they ask a lot for their pups there is no profit in it after all the bills are paid - puppy bills that is.

His dogs are very much part of the family and there is a waiting list for the next litter. When someone goes on their website and enquires he sends them a questionnaire that really spells out what is required to look after the breed. The website is mainly info on the breed, tons of pics of his dogs (mother and daughter) and pics posted by happy owners.

He does vet the prospective owners and has turned down a few.

This is what you should be looking for with a breeder OP. Someone who interviews you rather than the other way around. You should be left knowing your responsibilities and how to best care for your dog.

I have a x-breed. Mum is a black lab, dad a golden retriever. Our boy got the best of both. I puppy walked him for Guide Dogs and when he was deemed not suitable for working took him straight back home! I'd always had GSD before and would again but always from rescue - have you tried the breed rescue (even if not recognised there must be some kind of rescue set up for cockerpoos!)

I am looking for a good natured, fun loving family dog - we didn't rule out pedigree. We looked at all sorts of dogs and spoke to owners - that's just where we arrived. Trend or not isn't an issue either.

Sorry if I have offended you by saying 'I didn't like a poodle', I just meant that the look of most pure bred poodles wouldn't be our first choice of dog, which doesn't mean either that we didn't look at the temperament, how they are with kids, how much exercise they need and how they would fit in with our family.

Different dogs for different people. I don't really want a pedigree or not discussion.

TwoIfBySea - yes, that's how we will go about it now. And that is the impression I got from the first breeder we met - foolishly I thought they were all like this.

I didn't realise breeding is a hobby.

I think next time we walk away if the breeder doesn't seem interested in us on the phone/e-mail. That way we shouldn't get into such a situation again.

gabsid I'm sorry, but you're completely wrong about any good breeder doing so as a business or making money out of it. Good breeders only breed when they want a puppy for themselves to show or work and hopefully improve on and extend their lines. No one in their right mind would put their own bitch at risk purely to make money or provide puppies as pets for the general public.

Labradoodles are not a breed. They aren't even a type as there is no set type or look that they are bred to, they are simply a cross in varying degrees of two breeds. You cannot breed to improve a 'breed' that doesn't exist, therefore, these people are breeding for money.

Yes, all breeds started as crosses. However, there is already a breed to suit anyone's needs. If the current dog rescue and therefore welfare situation wasn't at crisis point I might feel differently, but in the current situation there is no need for new 'breeds', especially when the aim is 'create a cute pet dog with a silly, cutesy name'.

You still haven't answered my question about whether you really think there's a difference in looks between the three dogs linked to on page 2...

daisy, I agree with everything you say.

I hate hate hate designer dog breeding and the vanity of the people who buy them. I am on my 50 something foster so I do feel I can say that because I have the casualties in my house. And the cutesy name doesn't mean they come wrapped in a Cath Kidston ribbon and will look good at the school gates.

Yes, I agree with what Daisy has said too.

I have no sympathies with OP and as far as I'm concerned it would serve her right if she didn't get her deposit back. If someone is that blinkered and ignorant then good luck to them. Doodles and poos are not a breed they are a crossbreed! If you want to spend hundreds of pounds on a crossbreed dog then go ahead. Fall for the fancy website and glossy photos but don't whinge further down the line if your crossbreed has health issues because of poor breeding. Perhaps OP will learn a valuable lesson if dog becomes ill because it is the product of a mum with genetic health problems and dad with health problems. Make sure you take out a good insurance policy OP . You should spend more than half an hour with the poor dogs used as puppy making machines, see how they suffer. Watch some puppy farm videos on youtube, see how those poor dogs are kept in worse conditions than human prisoners. Look at how they suffer physically and mentally. You don't have sympathy for how they suffer and so I have absolutely no sympathy for the likes of you.

Yes, because owners of any lab/ poodle cross breed are for purely vacuous reasons such as looking good at the school gates .

That is a little insulting.

Not everyone wants a rescue dog. It is OK to not get your dog from a rescue. We had (IMO) very valid reasons for choosing the x breed we did. We did not pay a fortune, we did care about the mothers health, we did all that we could to ensure that we got her as responsibly as possible. We care for her and couldn't give a shiny shit that she has a cute sounding name.

These threads are always so loaded with barbed insults.

What I'm trying to get across is that a lot of poodle crosses look very much like poodles and what the difference is in appearance is due to how their owners get their hair cut.

There are a lot of labradoodles that if you gave them a trim would pass quite easily for poodles, especially ones that have been backcrossed with poodles somewhere, because they are mostly poodle.

You can like any kind of dog you want, I've always fancied an English Bull Terrier based purely on looks - but I know lots of people think they're ugly...it's personal choice.

It's just that if you're looking at crosses you should like both breeds, because there's no guarantee which bits of which breed will come out and you can't tell at 8 weeks, you quite often can't even tell at 8 months.

Crossing a poodle and a cocker spaniel can get you a dog that looks like a poodle, a dog that looks like a cocker, a poodle with a cocker coat, a cocker with a poodle coat, a dog with a coat halfway between both with cocker ears and legs and a poodle body or any other variation you can come up with. They don't all grow up to look the same way, not even in the same litter.

What 'valid reason' is there for getting a doodle then?

Tabularahrasa, I would go one further and actually say the type of labradoodle that people seem to largely prefer looks very much like a poodle in its natural coat. However, most people don't seem to realise poodles look like that.

designer dogs - bloody ridiculous. I don't know how long it will take these bloody "labradoodle" "cockashit" things to breed true but it takes GENERATIONS of selective breeding. You can't even garuntee if a labradoodle will moult or not. If you want a non moulting dog - buy a poodle, end of story.

This whole designer dog thing has opened up the doors for backyard breeders to have carte blance and it boils my piss!!!

Just have a crossbreed dog - the rescue centres are FULL of them, full to the extent that they can't take any more and dogs are having to be put to sleep, but then people go out and spend £££s on a "designer dog" which is no more a pedigree than i am a sloane ranger, ok yah!!

I DO understand people wanting pedigrees, as there is an element of personality and temprement within certain breeds. Lets face it, if you want a lap dog you aren't going to go for a border collie and if you want a dog to agility with you, your first choice isn't going to be a cavalier. So if you are looking to DO something specific with your dog, then go for a specific breed.
Otherwise, get your arse down to the local rescue centre, give THEM the £1000 you are paying for your "designer mongrel" because they need it more than the backyard breeders do and you will end up with a healthier and happier dog anyway. Its that simple!

We are training her with digs for the disabled to be a real companion for my ds. My FIL who helps with his care has severe asthma & we wanted to try & limit the risk if him being allergic to the new dog. DS himself has respiratory issues although not allergic to dogs. I now realise I will get posters telling me we should have got a poodle. You do mostly see labs as aide dogs though.
None of that detracts from the fact though that it is bloody insulting to assume people buy them for the 'designer tag'.