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The doghouse

If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

Just put a deposit down for a puppy but having doubts

132 replies

gabsid · 27/10/2012 22:03

Today we drove 3 1/2 hours to see cockapoo puppies. DC adored the 4 week old puppies and chose one.

However, the breeder told me that the cocker spaniel mum didn't have papers, nor a health check and I am not sure whether to go through with it.

Is there a cooling off period? Can I get the deposit back?

OP posts:
Floralnomad · 28/10/2012 10:56

What , your family needs a dog with a wavy coat ? if you want a cocker sized dog get a cocker , that's the only way you will get the reassurance you want about parental health checks . As has been said on previous threads here ( perhaps you should read some of them ) doodle breeders are in it for the money . That doesn't necessarily mean that none of them care about their pups but they are only breeding to raise money .

tabulahrasa · 28/10/2012 11:06

But you can't tell what kind of coat they have until their adult coat comes through Confused

I'm not saying - well you might as well get a poodle because they all look like poodles anyway, some do, some don't. But a puppy that's part poodle always has the potential to end up looking like a poodle...if you really don't want a dog that looks like a poodle a poodle cross is not the right dog.

Scuttlebutter · 28/10/2012 11:13

Which have a very useful website which outlines your rights as a shopper including this page here which goes into detail about your rights when buying online (which is how many people buy their pups). You absolutely have the right to cancel. They also have very useful letter templates which you can download and use. Smile

CottageCheeseAndAppleSandwich · 28/10/2012 11:28

Gabsid - you had no idea? Really?!
You drove 3.5 hours to view without first asking if parent dogs had regular health checks? You need to do loads more research and asking lots more questions when considering a puppy.

If all that matters to you is a long wavy coat, poodles come in three sizes. And their wavy hair can grow or be clipped to your preferance.
The pup will have temperament of both parents.

Mothers of poodle crosses cannot be properly monitored and are often forced to have litter after litter. So one season mum might have poodle pups, next season crossbreed pups or in your case mum will have alternate spaniel and crossbreed pups.

Think welfare before profit!!! And there are lots of dogs and pups in rescue needing a loving family home.

www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/208

colditz · 28/10/2012 11:35

Don't get a dog you have doubts about.

LadyTurmoil · 28/10/2012 11:39

gabsid I really think you need to have a long look at a lot of rescues out there. Many receive pregnant bitches who have their puppies in the care of the rescue. Many are looked after in foster families who make sure they are well fed, socialised, cat tested etc. A lot better than some breeders who keep animals outside in poor conditions, only bringing them inside to show to buyers, pretending that they're a loved family pet when they are looked upon as a source of income. Rescue dogs have been vet checked, wormed de-fleas, spayed/neutered if they're slightly older and assessed for suitability to live with children etc. I think you need to educate yourself about what's out there. Sorry if I sound harsh, but it's a minefield out there and all too easy to be seduced by cute puppies and pressure from your kids!!

midori1999 · 28/10/2012 13:03

gabsid it is good that now you realise the breeder you visited is not a good one and have therefore decided not to have this puppy. Not only does this mean you can find the right dog for your family, but it also means that you are not encouraging poor welfare practices (even if these puppies appeared well looked after, someone who doesn't even know about health checks/tests is not in a knowledgable enough position to be breeding without seriously putting their bitch at risk) and a repeat of this breeding.

It will be extremely hard to find an ethical breeder of cockapoos. I would argue that there can't be any, because there is no need to be breeding crossbreeds at the moment when so many dogs are being killed every day. (did you know that over 25,000 dogs int he UK are killed every year due to lack of homes? Healthy dogs, no behavioural problems for the most part?) However, that aside, if you do feel you wish to proceed, the minimum things you should be looking for are:

  • the bitch is over two years of age. Any younger than this and the bitch is not mature enough physically or mentally to have a litter. You also don't really know how they will turn out until they are mature.
  • the stud dog should be at least two years old, it is impossible to properly 'judge' what a dog will be like until they are fully grown.
  • parent dogs should both be KC registered (this is the only way to even start to verify their parentage and that there has been no inbreeding etc) and their papers must not be endorsed 'not for breeding'.
  • Stud dog and bitch should have have appropriate health tests. This is not a 'health check' at the vets. It means specialist testing at a vet specifically qualified to do these tests and for the cocker spaniels and poodles these include eye testing and hip scoring as the bare minimum. There will be certificates showing the results and they should be under the BMS for each breed in the case of hip scoring. You can find more information on hip scoring and other tests on the BVA website.
  • The bitch should not have had a litter in the last year, preferably longer and four is the absolute maximum number of litters any bitch should have. I personally think three is pushing it though.
  • the bitch should have been wormed from day 42 of her pregnancy to protect the puppies from having a heavy worm burden when they are born.
  • the puppies should be regularly wormed with the breeder from either 2 or 3 weeks (it depends on what brand of wormed is used) and this should be with a proper wormer from a vets, not a supermarket/pet shop brand.
  • puppies should be weaned onto a good quality diet, this excludes brands such as pedigree, bakers or cheaper brands.
  • puppies should be either born and reared in the house with some time outside if the weather is suitable or spend a length of time in the house each day. You want a pet dog to live in your house and as such any puppy you get should have been socialised to household sounds, sights and smells from a very young age.
  • the puppies should have been checked over by the breeder's vet. However, the breeder should still encourage you to take your puppy to be checked by your own vet within the first few days after you take them home.
  • the puppies should be microchipped or tattoed. They may be vaccinated, not all good breeders do this, but if they don't they must have a very good reason. (I personally do not vaccinate as I prefer the first vaccine to be at 9 weeks, it has nothing to do with money!)
  • the puppy should come with 6 weeks free insurance, some of the food it has been on at the breeders, written information regarding diet, how to exercise your puppy, worming etc and may or may not come with various other things in a 'puppy pack'. (as am example I include a copy of 'The Perfect Puppy' by Gwen Bailey and a couple of other books, some toys etc and also send each puppy home with a blanket and toy or hot water bottle cover that the new owner brought to me a few weeks earlier, so these have the smell of the litter when they go home)
  • the breeder should insist that at any time in the dog's life you cannot keep it you must return it to them and should not rehome it yourself. This applies whether the dog is 6 months or 16 years. They should also be available for telephone advice once you take your puppy home and should also be experienced enough to be able to give advice.

There are loads of other things, but research as much as you can. This dog will be your pet for the next 15 years or so, it's vital to get the right dog now.

Also, do you really think there's a huge difference in looks of the dogs posted on the previous page? I personally don't think there is. You cannot tell from a puppy reliably what coat it will have as an adult, their coats are very different once they shed out their puppy coat. Personally I feel you will get what you are after, including looks, from a poodle, they don't have to be clipped to look ridiculous (ok, that's my opinion only! Blush ) Although, I wouldn't get so fixated on looks you're prepared to compromise in other areas to get the puppy you want.

Do be prepared to wait. The chances of any good breeder having pups ready to view and choose now are very small. You are likely to have to go on a waiting list whatever dog you choose.

Also, don't rule out a rescue dog. There are large numbers of older puppies in rescue. nothing at all wrong with them, they're just not so cute anymore!

tabulahrasa · 28/10/2012 13:23

There's often no point in breeders vaccinating - vets carry different brands of vaccinations so the puppy has to start the course again and they've had the first vaccine for no reason.

Other than that, what midori said...

gabsid · 28/10/2012 15:00

Why do I feel I am being attacked for wanting a xbreed dog? The labradoodles it seems are almost considered a breed in itself. I could choose a labrador or a cocker spaniel, but we felt we liked one of these Xbreeds best, so what - its a matter of choice. We just need a good breeder, take our time and ask questions.

We need a breeder like the first one we met. She loved her 4 labradoodles and offered everything mentioned above, including doodle holidays (she took them back if owners went on holidays) and doodle parties. She also gave us lots of advice.

Sadly, that seemed to have gone out of the window yesterday - after a 3 1/2 hour drive.

Of course, we did look at the temperament and size of the dogs before the looks, but then there are a number of dogs that could make great family pets, and after that we choose by looks - I don't see what's wrong with that?

OP posts:
slightlycrumpled · 28/10/2012 15:00

We have a miniature labradoodle poodle x. We did have to travel a long way to find one that both parents had had the relevant health checks & certificates etc. Also, one that offered a lifetime support and asked us a million questions before we were able to visit. Ironically we paid far, far less than than the prices talked about here.

You've definitely done the right thing.

We also had to start again with the injections too as our local vets use a different brand to that of the breeders.

I would add that our dog looks nothing like photos of labradoodles we had seen. She looks like a small scruffy lab with a funny shaped head. She is utterly gorgeous Smile.

Toughasoldboots · 28/10/2012 15:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

gabsid · 28/10/2012 15:17

Yes, that first breeder (unfortunately their dogs were too big for us) said she often calls the people during the day just to see whether they are really home as much as they said and not out all day.

How did you find that breeder? Did you just ask lots of questions on the phone/e-mail?

I didn't ask enough questions as I just had her on the phone, she only has access to e-mail once per week, otherwise I would have sent more questions per e-mail and then ruled her out. But on the phone, I didn't want to bother her constantly - how stupid!!!!

OP posts:
gabsid · 28/10/2012 15:22

Toughasoldboots - one person has said that thousands of dogs are killed every year - was that you? Others would choose a rescue dog. I wouldn't, for exactly the reason I don't want to get one from the breeder we visited.

I prefer to find a good breeder.

OP posts:
gabsid · 28/10/2012 15:24

Scuttlebutter - great, thanks for the link!

OP posts:
Toughasoldboots · 28/10/2012 15:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

slightlycrumpled · 28/10/2012 15:32

Gabsid, it is very easy to get carried away I think.
I joined the labradoodle trust and found her that way. Not helpful if you want a different x breed though Blush.
There was an ad in a local paper not long before we put our name down for our current dog. I telephoned them & so nearly went to see them until I put the phone down and realised he hadn't asked me a single question!
Our breeder will not be doing it again, it was just a one off litter.

Floralnomad · 28/10/2012 15:42

The point being Gabsid that all doodles are just X breeds ( albeit expensive ones) and the general consensus is that there are no good breeders of doodles , but as stated previously that does not necessarily mean they don't care about the puppies . What it does mean is they are only bred for the monetary gain as there is no other good reason to breed them . Whether you wish to believe that is up to you but that is the bottom line.

Scuttlebutter · 28/10/2012 15:43

Glad it's useful.

Saying that you only have access to your emails once a week is a very convenient way of dodging questions though [hhmm].

These days, you can pick up your emails on a smartphone and can get a kindle or a netbook for basic emails for about a hundred quid. I'm really not convinced by that argument. Oh, and I forgot that nearly all public libraries have internet access for free.

Imagine this wasn't a puppy for a moment. Would you buy a domestic appliance from a shop where:- they couldn't tell you where and how it was made, the label/manufacturer, if it came with a guarantee, the shop refused to answer their phone, what programmes it ran, and if it would fit in your kitchen. Oh, and they paid no taxes, the appliances are made in a vicious sweatshop, and they flytip theeir waste.

Yet people will quite merrily pay out hundreds of pounds for an animal they will have for up to fifteen years, with virtually no information. And seem quite happy for the supplier to be open about not telling them anything. And also quite happy to hand over cash (actual folding notes) to a person who is almost certainly not declaring the income to the HMRC. Yet elsewhere on MN, there are howls (pardon the pun) of protest at any business who does this, or at people involved in benefit fraud.

And in general, there's a special and horrible irony that on a site primarily used by mothers, no purchaser of a dodgy pedigree puppy EVER seems remotely interested in the puppy's mum or what will happen to her when she's done her job and is finally knackered.

gabsid · 28/10/2012 15:56

scuttlebutter - but do dogs come under the 'Distant Selling Regulations'? Do you know that they do?

OP posts:
gabsid · 28/10/2012 15:58

scuttlebutter - I was wondering about the e-mail thing too as I went to the toilet there and I saw a laptop next to her bed?

OP posts:
gabsid · 28/10/2012 15:59

What I am wondering though is wouldn't she have been in this situation before? That people come and ask questions she can't answer sufficiently.

OP posts:
DemureNewName · 28/10/2012 16:03

Wow! I'm amazed that the seller didn't ask more questions!

I bought a labrador many years ago, and the seller VETTED us - we even had to bring my DSDs down to meet her!

We had 1 week to take the dog to the vet after collection - any problems = 100% money return and dog could be returned.
We have 8 weeks to return the dog if we decided we could not cope. No questions asked (50% of the fee returned).

gabsid · 28/10/2012 16:11

Slightlycrumpled said that she didn't go to see a doodle because the seller didn't ask any questions, I suppose that's how it should be.

People here said there are many bad breeders just in for the money amongst the Xbreeds. Is that different with the pure breeds?

OP posts:
Floralnomad · 28/10/2012 16:22

People breeding pedigrees do it to further the breed etc there is no furthering the breed with a x breed because they are by the nature of it not a breed . BTW I don't want to come across as a mongrel hater as I have a Xbreed terrier myself ( rescue puppy )

midori1999 · 28/10/2012 16:38

There are many bad breeders of pedigrees too, they far outweigh the good ones.

However, really no one should be breeding dogs now when so many dogs are being killed. The only good reason to do so, IMO, is to preserve the pedigree breeds we already have and even that should be done with very much thought. I haven't bred a litter for five years now and I won't be breeding for some time yet. This very sadly means 'my' lines will be gone, although there will still be dogs with the same bloodlines in existence. I cannot tell you how this makes me feel, I love 'my' breed and feel I have achieved a lot for the breed in the time I have been breeding. However, I cannot bring myself to breed as things currently stand and when I am unable to keep another puppy. I do know that there are good custodians of the breed who will keep it going and keep improving it though and it's not all about me and what I want, it's always been about the dogs for me.

You haven't answered whether you really think there's a difference in looks between the poodle and doodles linked on page 2? At least with a pedigree breed like a poodle you'd be more certain of exactly what you were going to get.

You can get a well bred rescue via breed club rescues too. A lot come with a known history and you can probably speak to the breeder.

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