Dog really hates toddler DS

[TheHolyGruel]

I have posted about this before. I have two dogs (staffs) and a toddler DS who is 20mo.

My older dog (male) really dislikes my DS. He growls at him constantly and it is just getting worse. We had problems with this dog being dog aggressive but this has been overcome somewhat by walking him on a muzzle and walking the dogs separately. The dog has been checked by a vet, other than a recent worm problem (now sorted) there is nothing wrong.

We sought advice from a dog trainer/rescue person who we had a couple of sessions with. His advice re the toddler/dog situation was to put the dog down, as if something did go wrong then not only would it be a dreadful situation for us, but dreadful for staffies everywhere (another story for the papers etc, another crack in the BSL nonsense defence - I fully believe that BSL is bollocks and that the problem is not because he's a staff, but I'll talk about that in a moment). But I don't feel I can do it. In the meantime, any attempts to unite dog and DS are failing. DS is instructed to offer dog treats, to sit nicely and pet nicely, not to run up to dog, not to touch anything belonging to dog, etc. I make an effort for the dogs to be in the same room as DS as often as possible, but I am becoming worried for DS safety, as dog is really sounding at the end of his rope.

I honestly believe it is because the dog has been usurped from his position of 'first born'. The other dog displays no such issues, and is very fond of DS. The problem dog has always been the established top dog.

DH works away from home sometimes and has his biggest stint of the year coming up next month. He is away for a month, and I am petrified of how I will cope with this situation alone. It is so stressful.

In the first instance, does anyone know of a way in which I could find a foster carer for my dog, initially for this upcoming period, or is this unrealistic? He is fine with dogs smaller than himself and with older children (all children aside from DS it seems, in fact).

Can anyone offer any other advice or solutions? I think ultimately he will need rehoming, but I also know it's not that simple...

Yes, it is something that needs addressing, but it does not automatically mean that the dog is an immediate danger to the child. The fact that this has been going on for almost two years and has not escalated further proves that this dog has a great deal of control over it's actions and absolutely does not want to hurt the DS. It wants to be listened to.

Words fail me. Op said she got a trainer in who said the dog should be removed as it is a danger to the child. What would indicate to you that the dog is dangerous to the child? Would only the act of it biting the child, ripping its face or limb satisfy you?

yes that is the ideal situation Midori but it's not happening in the OP's situation. We're just going round in circles here. And meanwhile the dog is still in the dc's home

I have a PhD from a top university, which taught me how to think systematically.

I also happen to have a great deal of common sense. So yes, intellect and common sense. Something which seems to be sorely lacking in the so called doghouse 'experts'

For what it is worth, my dogs are balanced and happy. Because I TRAIN them. They never growl at any family member.

If I remember correctly, you both seem to have dogs with issues. So really, I would go with my own training beliefs on what works, as I have the results in front of me, three well-trained, balanced dogs.

Anyone who advises OP in this situation that the constant growling at the child is not dangerous, is irresponsible beyond belief.

No Flatbread, they have rescued dogs with behavioural issues and have rehabilitated them into family pets.

A growl is a warning, and is a good sign. Anyone that truly knows dogs, knows this. Not you it seems.

Yes, Dallas. Go ahead, let your dogs growl at your children. I am sure it is a very good thing. In fact according to the twisted logic being presented by you and your kind on this forum, the more the dog growls at your child, the safer the child is.

Like I said, second rate 'experts' with incoherent logic and dangerous advice.

Sorry Mama - I've read back and realised it wasn't you I thought was being too harsh on the OP.

OP - you've had good, and in many ways, balanced advice on here. Vets, behaviourists etc. I hope you come to a solution soon.

I would like to add this though - in my time sewing up dogbites in A&E, I never met a single dog owner who met the stereotypical 'yob with a lead' description. I'm sure they're out there, but I just never happened to meet one. There were middle aged couples with dog bites from elderly labradors, families with Jack Russells who 'wouldn't hurt a flea', well trained collie dogs who became over excited (one got very excited when it's owner came home and bit the end off his nose - well, it was hanging on by a strap of skin)! The owner, strangely, found it quite funny.

Even the staffie who tore half the toddler's ear off was a well loved family pet with 'naice' owners. They genuinely were shocked and bewildered.

My own flatmate during that time was picked up out of her stroller at the age of 8 months by her neck by her grandparents beloved golden retriever for no apparent reason (was asleep). She had to have 28 reconstructive surgeries as the skin kept tightening and needing to be released again as she grew so her lower lip wasn't pulled down.

The only thing in common seemed to be that there was a 'perfect storm' moment. Ie - grandchild picks up usually well behaved spaniel who had their jabs the day before. Or dog slips lead and attacks other dog in the park and owner gets in the way to break it up. I think the fact that you have a DC who can't enter a room in your house, a surmountable stairgate, are stressed, have no garden and can't take your dogs out easily anymore, means that this situation has more potential for most to be a problem.

Dogs are wonderful, but I have a tricky time completely buying the 'only bad owners, not bad dogs' line, as all the owners I met in A&E seemed very reasonable.

I'm very glad you are looking for a new home.

{aware that will be picked up and flamed at some of what I've written, but it's what I observed over many months and I am a dog lover.}

But this dog has learnt that it can behave badly towards the dc and for some reason this learning has been reinforced. So now it is dangerous towards the dc. I know dogs. I would never let my dog growl at my dc but it wouldn't because it knows where it is in the pecking order.

And a growl is never a good sign.

Yes, Flatbread, we know you have a PHD, you told us that before... is it in dog behaviour though? No? Do you have any experience with dogs that have behavioural problems? No? So, seeing as you have no relevent experience or qualifications in this area, what do you think makes your opinion more valid than those who do?

Yep, I have a dog with issues, I rescue dog whose issues were caused by events before I had him and the same applies to Dooin, I believe. I also have three well behaved, well socialised dogs, two of which will soon be PAT dogs hopefully. However, it's not a pissing contest, the fact is, you don't have any relevent qualifications or experience in this area.

I don't think anyone has said the situation isn't dangerous (or potentially dangerous) just that it can be managed in a way that means the dog can be kept and the child concerned won't be in danger. However, it appears that the OP does not feel she can keep the dog and so is trying to act responsibly in the way she rehomes it, seemingly helped by those who you are poo poo'ing...

I know Midori sometimes I feel a right wanker saying it, and I never really mentioned my degrees in rl.

You are right, it is not a pissing contest. It is about the OP's ds having a safe environment. This is one clear example of where immediate rehoming/pts is required, and yet some moron comes along and says it is not so bad, wee doggie lamb just needs to be 'listened too' and a behaviouralist will make everything ok.

OP from the looks of it has been quite tardy in resolving the situation. After a trainer who has seen her dog has said it should be pts, it is highly irresponsible to say the situation is not dangerous and lull OP into a false sense of security.

Flatbread Although it is none of your business I have no dogs with behavioural issues. I have 8 dogs that would have been put to sleep by owners/trainers who did not know what they are talking about. They are now happy integrated dogs who compete regularly amongst other dogs in obedience and agility and last night one of them was out with search and rescue.

Apart from two hours this afternoon (when I was being paid for my dog behavioural advice) I have been contacting rescues trying to find a rescue for this dog - what have you been doing to help?

Flatbread, my (rescue, badly treated) dog doesn't growl at my child. She has been trained to move to her place of safety if she isn't happy. If she growled at my DD I would first tell DD to stop whatever she was doing, and then see what was wrong with the dog. A growl is a warning that a dog is not happy. When my dog moves to her bed DD has generally done something wrong and gets told off for it.

If someone pisses you off do you automatically punch them in the face? No, you would tell them that you are pissed off. You would warn them. That is what a growling dog is doing. My extensive experience with rescue dogs (you know, that experience you have none of) has taught me that.

I don't see why you are always determined to pooh pooh the experienced dog owners/trainers/behaviourists on here? It's like you fell foul of them when you first came on here and want to 'get your own back' for the flaming you received. Fine, but you are putting dogs and their owners at risk when you do so. Why would you do that?

OP my friend near Bristol is full, but has given me the number for someone in Highbridge, is that too far?

Toutou I will not flame you but it does illustrate how little people know about dogs. I do know I come across as harsh but it is for example because peoples give out such ridiculous comments on this forum.- not meaning you by the way

No dog will without warning go and jump on a sleeping baby - what the owners have missed are the usually obvious warning signals that lead up to that.

People are given advice to hit, reprimand a dog or dominant it and this DOES cause many of the dog attacks.

I have worked with dogs for too many years to remember and have only truly seen 1 aggressive dog that could not have the behaviour changed or managed safely. He had a brain tumour which was effecting his behaviour. Also in the law of averages I guess I have had contact with many more dogs than the average person yet have never been bitten. That is because I understand and have seen the signals that dogs give off.

People need to educate themselves, not panic, not get into this ridiculous harm the child and protect the dog argument. Noone is suggesting that.

Just get proper advice put in some effort and make sensible realistic things to prevent any problems which will protect the children and the dogs. If problems do occur take professional advice from qualified professionals.

Thanks for the response Herbert - you don't sound harsh at all.

But honestly, I spoke to my flatmates parents (very sensible Swedish dog lovers - why Swedish has anything to do with it I'll never know!) and that is absolutely what happened. Baby in pram, parents and grandparents taking a walk, usually docile dog, sudden attack. I really agree with you, there must have been something going on unknown to the grandparents., hence what I meant about a 'perfect storm'. A series of factors that lead to the attack, but much of the time there was no way an could have predicted the attack.

Incidently, my flatmate was an au pair for a couple and they had the most dopey GR ever and we ended up with one of her puppies. My flatmate wasn't scared of dogs despite what happened to her and looked after this GR.

My own PILs rigourously trained, gorgeous, JRussell/whippet cross snapped at my daughters hand really viciously when she was a toddler and DD was stroking her under supervision- turns out she had the beginnings of arthritis in her hip so was probably in pain . Again, couldn't be predicted. The same thing happened with my parents cat - DD was scratched because the cat had arthritis as was about 16 YO. The only difference is, a dog bit would be a lot worse than a cat scratch, which is why it can be unnerving.

Herbert have you met the OP's dog?

I have seen the amount of nonsense advice on the DogHouse that is of detriment to dogs and their owners. Gems like this, a growling dog is a good thing. Always stuff your dog with goodies no matter what the issue. Never say 'no' to your dog. Distract and plead and treat, but never teach boundaries or respect.

Yup, all stuff that is likely to create dogs like OP's. And then the 'experts' write back and say, it is not a bad situation. Dog just needs to be listened to and express himself. There is no real danger to the child...just call one of our ilk in and we will sort it out for you, by making sure the child lives in fear and the dog rules the house.

This is the only reason I write on these threads, if the level of inane advice becomes too much. I wonder if some innocent to-be dog owner accepts this as the 'norm' in dog behaviour and two years down the line, thinks, oh my dog growled at my child, that must be a good thing as some 'expert' on MN said so

flatbread totally agree

No worries toutou

I would love to meet the OP's dog.

Well it needs a new home herbert

I really cannot understand why I am getting all the flack. I am offering professional advice to prevent this situation from happening again. I am looking for a rescue place. Yet other very vocal posters are doing nothing but gobbing off

If you cared or are at all interested in the OP/DC's welfare or the dogs do something positive fgs.

Stop talking absolute rubbish

I just wondered if you had observed it. No snarkiness intended.

Actually, Herbert - I think you sound very reasonable. It's good to hear expert opinions on things like this. The problem is, it's an emotive topic and people have strong opinions.

I would but I have 8 already!!!! If the worst came to the worst though I will but that is not the answer unfortunately. This is not the only dog I have been asked to find a home for today - this is why I am so vehement about people educating themselves to prevent this happening again and again and again and again

So everyone who has hands on experience of dealing with problematic dogs and/or qualifications in that field are wrong and flathead et al are right?

Best cancel that college course then and just let my dog have puppies. I'll learn loads more that way