ok following on from the fear aggresion thread, what if it turns into agressive aggresion?

[ditavonteesed]

Didnt want to hijack the thread.
Cherry was fear aggresive, very submissive and only ever snapped at big dogs, we did look dog and it worked, she was great for ages but now is worse than ever, she is a bully, she will only snap at puppies or smaller dogs and I cant trust her at all when there are other dogs around. she looks at me stright away and always comes straight back when she sees a dog for her treat so that bit is still very definatly useful but I have to put her on the lead when we see any other dog and prefereably walk her a long way away.
She also marks, drives me mad every 2 steps she has to pee, is this a sign of dominance. I have kind of resigned myself to lead and long way away walks but can we resolve this or is it just her personality?
Any tips gratefully recieved (except pin her down and stuff, just though i would get that in in advance)
And before people pile in she has never actually bitten another dog and is never given the chance anymore.

Ok, you never got to the heart of the problem, you just distracted the dog. You are not in control of your dog. You now just resign yourself to the dog controlling you rather than you being in charge.

Firm discipline is not alpha rolling your dog. But it is clear that you want an easy treats only route that can distract her longer, without having to make any real effort. I would suggest you get a good dog trainer in who has a broad range of tools to help you resolve this problem, and is practical in his approach. There is something in between treats and distractions for every problem and alpha rolling your dog. Most people operate in the inbetween space and have balanced dogs.

PS-get the peeing checked by a vet to see if it is a uti.

Don't punish her. Ever. At all. Not even once. It will make it worse.

Go to the vets about the peeing. It's not a sign of dominance. It could be a sign of fear or a UTI.

Enroll in training classes.

If she starts to appear as though she will behave aggressively turn around and walk away from the cause of her aggression, quietly. Don't treat, just walk away. The chances are you have accidentally taught her to behave this way when you were working on the fear aggression. She is going to have to learn that in order to pass the other dog and get her treat she must remain calm.

When Jas was peeing every other step it turned out he had a UTI. A quick course of AB's cleared it up in no time. DOoin's advice makes sense to me, as it's building on the hard work you've already put in. Can you distract her with a game? So that she ignores all other dogs?

I have a collie who sounds very similar to Cherry

She will snap first rather than wait to see if the other dog is friendly and is particularly bad with small dogs or ones that are submissive.
She reacts completely differently to dogs who show no interest in her!

My collie also comes straight back when we see another dog and I always put her on the lead. This has helped a lot. I don't avoid other dogs but I don't stop and chat either! I just walk past normally.

I have found that it is just how she is. I don't want to make a big thing of another dog approaching so I often randomly put her on her lead, so she doesn't associate it with something approaching, although she always looks!

She is a lovely dog otherwise so long as I keep alert to other dogs around, always put her on her lead and don't listen to the people who say "Oh let her off, they'll be fine!"

I agree with trying training classes although I no longer go with my collie as I found it stressed her out to be surrounded by dogs in an enclosed space. However she went until she passed all her good citizen tests and now I just do agility with her which she loves.

We should have a Mumsnet meet for Mumsnetters with grumpy dogs then we could walk round a park and sympathise with each other as the dogs all bark and growl together!

been checked at the vet, been going on for a very long time though. we stopped going to classes because it seemed to make her so stressed and anxious that she was worse afterwards, too mnay dogs in an enclosed space I think. I have been toying whether to get the trainer back in, she was excellent and really dealt with the problems we had before. Maybe its time, I have been walking out in hte middle of nowhere becaseu both the dogs and I enjoy it more, but the last few weeks we have been stuck going in the local park as I cant drive, she has pretty much been stuck on her lead which is just a bit miserable, although she doesnt actually seem to mind.
So we dont let her pass another dog unless she is behaving right? I have tried walking parralel to dogs that she is particularly reactive to (luckily we know all the dogs walkers in the area) is this a good thing to do?

What sort of dog is she?

I walk my collie on a halti. I started because she was prone to pull a bit and when I got my spaniel I found it easier to keep her on it so I could train him to walk nicely when I started walking them together.

She is MUCH easier to walk on a halti. I can walk past other dogs without her being able to bounce around or lunge across me. But a halti wouldn't stop my spaniel pulling so it depends on the dog.

My collie also has a permanent "grab handle" attached to her collar! it is a short strap with a clip on that comes with a halti to attach them to their collars so they can't get away if they manage to get the halti off.

Mostly it's for just taking hold of her if we are walking round a blind corner when she is off lead. I don't always use the halti when we pass other dogs in the fields as it takes me too long to put it on when I'm carrying balls and ball launchers etc

I wouldn't wait for your dog to behave before you walk past. I would just put her on her lead and walk past as normally as possible with a treat. if she is well behaved then give her the treat after you have passed.
I don't meet many people and I don't walk in a park so this may be easier said than done!

I wouldn't do parallel walking if it stressing her. You can move onto that slowly. Getting a trainer to come in is a good idea.

No, don't pass other dogs until she is behaving right. The distance you can get between her and another dog will shorten as she starts to realise that she is being led away when her behaviour changes.

youve she is a bborder terrier, she shows very subtle stress signs, so other people wouldnt notice and think she just turns, she licks her lips and cocks her head, twitches her nose. I can see them becasue I am looking for them. As i say she is stuck on park walks for a few weeks so now would be a really good time to work on things.

I don't believe this has turned into aggressive aggression but is still fear aggression at the cause of the problem. Your clever dog has worked out that by being grumpy etc the situation she is uncomfortable with goes away. From her point of view it works However that does not make your life easy neither does it mean you have a relaxed dog.

Peeing can be a calming signal to a dog like yawning, looking away etc so if the vet gives the all clear I would be it is your dog trying to calm down.

I also don't think the situation has got any worse but is being highlighted by the fact that you are walking amongst dogs more. Again I would recommend BAT. Personally I have used it so many times and the difference is amazing in the dogs, they get confident and can even get to the stage of playing safely off lead with strange dogs. It does take time but WILL work.

Cherry is showing you the Premack way of learning. So I would also use that to help her overcome this issue. Her reward for being calm will be to remove her from the situation. Once she has cottoned on that you will take her away she will have no need to lunge growl etc.

So when she is well below threshold do look dog and then turn away from the dog. Praise her and then go on as normal. Overtime get nearer to the dog before your turn away or make her look for longer and then move away. Her calm behaviour means that she will be removed from the situation.

Hang on in there - you have done and are doing a great job with a difficult dog.

ok quick read of premack, I think I get it, so behaving get the treat, but growling an dsnapping gets her taken away quickly and that is more preferable to the treat, so while she wants the treat she wants to be removed from the situation more?

today I saw one of the training from the classes I take eric, with her 3 big dogs, stood chatting, cherry on lead but a little bit behind me, quite relaxed. stood for a while then big dog came to great her, she submitted ie flattened herself to floor and started belly crawling, then she snapped. how does that stand on what you think? Was quite interesting to watch in slow motion as I could see exactly what causes the sanp without worrying about human reactiions.

I would make the primary reward - removing from the situation calmly then treat. If she does growl and react move away but no treat no interaction. When she is calm look dog and then remove and treat if no reaction. You need to work on her threshold distance and avoid the need for reaction(this bit is hard and we all get it wrong at times so don't worry if that happens)

bless her! Her reaction shows how well you are doing. She was trying to behave but it all got too much too close too quick so her only reaction was to snap.

In the same situation look dog, turn away treat her. Then you are rewarding the calm behaviour and she does not feel she has to snap to get away from the dog.
Over time you will be able to look dog for longer or be closer but I would work on at least a fortnight of positive encounters and walking away calmly.

There is a really good video on BAT with dog-fearing or dog-aggressive dogs on YouTube somewhere - will see if I can find it tomorrow. Can't remember if it was Kikopup or Sophia Yen (is that her name?) or someone else, sorry!